h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

The title of this thread was "Why do People Hate Americans".

Well i think that most of this thread, and the previous thread "Whats Wrong with Americans" shows that people don't hate Americans at all. It also shows that they despise the American government with a vengence.

It also seems that a lot of people have difficultly in differentiating between the two. This includes Americans themselves who seem to take attacks on their government as personal attacks.


As for freedom of speech, i hope you one day get it in the US. I can remember who said it but i stand by the motto "I don't agree with a word you say, but i'll fight to the death for your right to say it".

As far as Bush and religion:

I said I didn't care. As long as he doesn't try to oppress my minority religious view or try to claim that we're a Christian nation, we're cool.

I think the amount of religion depends on the area where you live. There are more churches in my county than there are shoe stores on Oxford Street.

The Election:

We just have a different way of selecting our leaders than you do. We aren't a democracy. The courts decided. The Supreme Court probably did overstep its limits a bit to correct the obviously incorrect position of the Florida Supreme Court. President Bush won more votes in Florida than Vice President Gore. Therefore he legitimately won the election.

No one in Florida was disenfranchised. The Civil Rights Commission tried to find evidence of that, but they couldn't.

Personally, I would favor a direct election, but for now the law stands, and the law says that George W. Bush is president.

The EU:

Sorry buddy, but governments inevitably grow in power. Y'all established the EU, and it's going to become one government. I feel for you.

The debt:

The US debt is $5,820,599,313,961.29 as of 10/17/01. You can always find it at the US Bureau of Public Debt's web site.

Institutes:

I don't think we can ban books in the United States.

The School of Americas (which has recently been renamed) is at Fort Benning, Georgia. It has a new name. I don't think its their intent to train terrorists.

Broken Arrow:

I can't tell you how much that article p**sed me off. I wrote about two pages responding to the person who forwarded it to me. My mother probably won't talk to me for a week, but I can't stand stuff like that.

Humor:

I don't think you should ever lose your sense of humor. I had an extra job at 11:00 am on 9/11. We were cracking jokes about it over the radio. Maybe that's a cop thing. There's not been a crime scene yet that a cop hasn't cracked a joke at.

"I don't agree with a word you say, but i'll fight to the death for your right to say it":

I think it is usually credited to Benjamin Franklin, but he was praphrasing or quoting someone else.

Among the SOA's nearly 60,000 graduates are notorious dictators Manuel Noriega and Omar Torrijos of Panama, Leopoldo Galtieri and Roberto Viola of Argentina, Juan Velasco Alvarado of Peru, Guillermo Rodriguez of Ecuador, and Hugo Banzer Suarez of Bolivia.

Lower-level SOA graduates have participated in terrorist that include the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero, the La Penca bombing and the El Mozote Massacre of 900 civilians.

There is a move afoot to rename it.

You're right, i am behind the times - the School of Americas is now called the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation.

I guess the reason we take cuts on our government personally is that here in America, we ARE the government. You may disagree with that, but I believe it with all my heart. If the nation wants something done, we do it. We elect our leaders, we write letters to our congressmen, and if we don't like something, we DO something about it. So when you bash George W. Bush, it stings because I voted for him and I like him very much. I also helped elect Richard Shelby. So as far as I'm concerned, when you say you despise the American Government, that means you despise me and everything I stand for.

And for what it's worth, it doesn't really matter what you think about our government...unless you move here.

except when your government, or it's unelected agencies, go marching round the world installing tinpot dictators, conducting terrorist wars and genrally behaving like w****rs... that kind of thing affects everyone. And it's not what you voted for. I hope.

What are you doing about these injustices?

I left the rest of this in so it could be in context. Evidently my point was missed. I purposely left off the lines following this. I thought a few of you might catch my drift, but I suppose we in the US are the only ones with this opinion, and Whoami did not mean what h/she said.

One more time, just for fun..... "I'm not out to be ahrsh, but sometimes the soft, gentle touch doesn't work"

Oh, and the autist formerly known as flinch....if your intent is to inflame US citizens....may I say, you have the words for it.

Thanks, Two-bit, for trying to clarify a few things for these guys, though sadly, I don't think you can. Folks around here take themselves entirely too seriously!

NM

This is the sort of thing that should inflame US citizens, not people pointing it out...


The Intelligence Oversight Board (IOB) Report issued June 28, 1996, charged with investigating excesses and abuses by the US intelligence community found the U.S. Army's "School of the Americas" (SOA) has been training Latin American soldiers how to torture and kill their own people using training materials that condoned "executions of guerillas, extortion, physical abuse, coercion, and false imprisonment" and that included information about "motivation by fear, payment of bounties for enemy dead, false imprisonment and the use of truth serum."

Pentagon officials said that "the SOA seeks only to professionalize Latin American armies and strengthen democracies" and absolved US officials of any responsibility for training of Latin American In the report, the Inspector General Russell Rau, said Friday (Feb. 21) said that "mistakes" lead to the inclusion of "objectionable" information in manuals used to train Latin American soldiers and officers at the US Army School of the Americas (SOA) at Fort Benning, Georgia and "further investigation to assess individual responsibility is not required." .

I'm going back to my observation booth.

I knew better than to try and make a point here...you guys have your minds made up already.

Its' a fun read, anyway!LOL

NM

Do you really think i've got nothing better to do than try to iritate people?

I think Americans are largely decent people who deserve better than the things that are done in their name.

It a problem we have in the UK too. Especially at the moment.

Doo doo de do-doo, doo doo de-do-doo, do-do-de doo doo doo!



Okay, enough of that. I'm feeling silly today.

I agree completely with you, Lucinda - but I will say that movies and games give unimaginative criminals new ways of hurting others. Instead of lighting the cat on fire, it gets stuffed into the wood chipper.

Autist - wow, kind of puts America into perspective, doesn't it? I had no idea that movie theaters in Britain were so strictly regulated. Doesn't make any sense, but then it wouldn't for somebody raised in a capitalist economy. Here in the Untied Snakes it seems we have one weird art movie after another... not that I'm complaining! It's great. And because of the popularity of art movies, movie directors are beginning to take some chances on movies, and really getting quality plots.

Oh, sorry - got ahead of myself and didn't read the backlog before posting. The previous post was in reference to Lucinda's quote:

Movies and video games don't influence behaviour. If they did, then everyone who played PacMan would be running around darkened rooms, eating magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music..."
-anon

Can I rag on OBL some more? Seems like you guys have raked him up and down pretty good, but there are some things that need to be said that haven't been, yet.

OBL: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma School officials remove "God Bless America" signs from schools in fear that someone might be offended.

• I think the Broken Arrow incident has been resolved. I can't post the statement from the Board because of possible copyright violation
but I'll paraphrase it by saying that schools are allowed to display patriotic symbols for the purposes of patriotism (dumb sentence, but that's basically what they said.) Individual schools are encouraged to celebrate a week or special days in a patriotic manner.

OBL: Channel 12 News in Long Island, New York, orders flags removed from the newsroom and red, white, and blue ribbons removed from the lapels of reporters.

• Reporters were *not* ordered to remove the flags from their lapels; they were encouraged to wear their normal attire and to avoid display, but it was up to the personal choice of the newscaster.

OBL: I, for one, am quite disturbed by these actions of so-called American citizens; and I am tired of this nation worrying about whether or not we are offending some individual or their culture.

• I'm really tired of people being called anti-American because they're criticising America. Criticism of our own system is what gives us strength. Complacency will get us killed.

OBL: First of all, it is not our responsibility to continually try not to offend you in any way. This idea of America being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language, and our own lifestyle.

• Excuse me? I find your remarks highly offensive, and I'm an American! America *is* a multicultural community. This is our strength. I'm proud that I have a diverse past and ancestors from several different countries.

OBL: This culture, called the "American Way" has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

• How many centuries are we talking about? There's only been two! And it's only been in the last twenty years or so that women were allowed to die for their country. Our culture is derived from a rich background of different nationalities - we didn't just come up with it from nowhere.

OBL: We speak English, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese,
Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to
become part of our society - learn our language!

• Guess what. English is Britain's language, not ours. We don't speak 'American' - we speak English that has been heavily influenced by other cultures, such as Spanish, Chinese, German, Italian, und so weiter. If you want to divest your English of such cultural marks as these, by all means move to England. I hear it's a nice place...

OBL: "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some off-the-wall, Christian, Right Wing, political slogan - it is our national motto...We adopted this motto because Christian men and
women, on Christian principles, founded this nation; and
this is clearly documented throughout our history.

• America was founded as a nation based on religious freedom, not a nation based upon Christianity. Many of the founding fathers were agnostics or Deists, meaning that they did not subscribe to the tenets of Christianity, but believed in an omnipresent deity.

Thomas Paine:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of ... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

John Adams:
"This would be the best of all possible Worlds, if there were no Religion in it"

Treaty of Peace and Freedom, Article XI:
"the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion"

James Madison:
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

Ben Franklin:
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion ... has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble."

(Moderators: any copyright that these guys might have had on their work has long since expired)

OBL: God is in our pledge, our National Anthem, nearly every patriotic song, and in our founding documents. We honor His birth, death, and resurrection as holidays, and we turn to Him in prayer in times of crisis. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture and we are proud to have Him.

• Actually, if you want to get technical (and evidently you do), the celebrations of birth, death and resurrection aren't original with Christianity - they were based upon Greco-Roman and Druidic holidays. If you're saying that agnostics and atheists don't belong in America, then I suggest you find us some new founding fathers.

OBL: The American culture is our way of life, our heritage, and we are proud of it. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. We are Americans, like it or not, this is our country, our land, and our lifestyle.

• It's people like you that give Americans a bad name. You come off as bombastic, pompous, and way too self-assured. If you're happy with your culture and have no desire to change it, then you should be happy with the warm reception Muslims received in America after the Sept. 11th atttacks.

Grrr... Okay, I feel better now.

Now. I like many things about America. I'd rather live here than anywhere else. One thing I like is the freedom to criticize if we don't like the way some things are done. Another thing I like is that we have a wide range of opinions in our news media. Those who want to listen to Rush Limbaugh (with half their brain tied behind their backs, no doubt) can do so freely. Those who want to listen to Bill Maher (heaven forbid that you strain a neuron!) are free to do so.

On the other hand I have different fingers.

Just read the past two days postings, so u guys had fun ey!

Seems to me the discussion is going somewhat backwards, I´m having a Deja Vu or maybe just beeing too

I´ll be back if I have anything intelligent to add.



"I don't agree with a word you say, but i'll fight to the death for your right to say it".

Fracois Marie Arouet de Voltaire

1694-1778

Ohh and I will try and think of something I really hate about America (not Americans

T´mershi Duween

Lentilla..

and/or as the case may be..

Lentilla - I couldn't have put it better myself. As for yesterday evening's excitement, and the moderator's apparent ineptitude, I have referred it to Peta.

Whoami?

Just think of the names of your local multiplexes - WB / UCI / Rank - they own the cinemas, the distribution and the production, this process is called Vertical Integration. They used to be a bit shy about it, hiding behind other names like Cannon/ABC etc but in the brand proud '80's they came out and shouted about it! (Wait for "No Logo" - the movie, coming never to a cinema near you) Someone pointed out that it was dismantled in the States for infringing monopoly laws so it's not the same over there. Even the distribution of arthouse films is done by these companies (or another american Miramax).

>>by all means move to England. I hear it's a nice place...<<

Nooooo! Don't send him here...

The US only just speaks English anyway, when the official language was voted for German lost by a couple of votes. (I'm sure Two Bit can give us the details - a quick round of applause for this man, his knowledge and his library).

So when did "In God We Trust" become the national motto, and under whose offices?

>>How many centuries are we talking about? There's only been two!<<

It may only be two centuries, but it is the oldest surviving liberal democracy in the world. And they do have an awful lot to be pround of. But most of that is enshrined in the national charachter / consiousness, not the government or their actions.

One thing I do find just silly is people ragging on OBL just because of his name. It's a name I think I remember from the pre-BBC days, some guy left and set his name to 'OBL (deceased)'. Always used to annoy me when I found his stuff in PR, it was good stuff, but not quite good enough to recc'...

Anyway, rather that complaining that OBL's name is offensive, perhaps it would be better to watch our words, lest we accidently offend the researcher OBL when the intended target is Al-Qaeda.

And please can people cut down on 'the community thinks this' and 'the community thinks that' comments. I really dislike being spoken for by other people, and I feel it betrays a gross arrogance on the speaker. If you want to talk to OBL about his general behaviour on h2g2, don't do it by trying to humiliate him here, just have a quiet word on his personal space. Public stonings are never helpful.

*gets off soapbox*