h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>>Obviously they didn't read the bible; thou shall not commit murder,and I believe it to be a sin to take your own life.Letting others do it is the same thing.<<

We don't live in a theocracy so what the Bible says about anything should be irrelevant when it comes to writing our laws.

It is already legal to kill yourself; what are they going to do about it, fine them, put them in prison. I never take anything a tory says at face value, and laws are made by them and the tabloids not us. We don't have a say in it.

In fact the tories don't even have a say in it; notice how similar every government is and how quickly you lose an election after threatening to cut Trident, or going against the interests of the occupying force, the Americans.

As I see it the new law will be to make it legal to kill people, some already have been doing that in Hyde Nr Manchester, possibly to save the state all that expense keeping alive some old coots that have long outlived their usefullness, or LCP to free up some beds, but it is against the law at the moment.

It is a pathetic and illogical idea dreamed up by the evil, using the unfortunates feelings of hopelessness and depression to further their own spurious ambitions.

I was diagnosed with cancer some years ago; I was riddled with it. But I questioned a more recent x-ray since it was clear, without treatment it had disapeared all by itself. I'm not suggesting locked in syndrome is treatable, but it could be, and if somebody encouraged an interest in other than self destruction merely because they cannot any longer do what most people can't afford to do anyway, maybe lawyers would not have got quite so rich at our expense.

using the bible as a basis of making laws in 21st century Britain is just plain silly.

I'm an athiest. I don't insist everyone goes around denying there is a god and making laws according to that and I would request that Christians (Pastafarians, whoever) keep their religion out of my life.

What I want from lawmakers is that they respect the society they live in. (added to which: there are plenty of politicians who profess to be Christian who agree with the the death penalty. Where does that fit into the 10 commandments?)

"What I want from lawmakers is that they respect the society they live in. (added to which: there are plenty of politicians who profess to be Christian who agree with the the death penalty. Where does that fit into the 10 commandments?)"

There is lots of contradictions, people that live lies for appearance sake, and even the bible is a contradiction from beginning to end.

Thou shall not work on the Sabbath; is an example. What would happen if nobody worked on the Sabbath, but who said the Sabbath is the same day for everybody or what constitutes work.

The earth and heavens were created in six days; but everybody knows that time did not exist in the beginning and everything was created instantly.

For me the bible is like a guide; it is a map to follow to allow us to prosper through life, and the docent is some kind of unknown force holding everything together.

Without this guide; I don't see any problems at all to go down the bank with an oozy, and help myself to a lot of dosh, or similar as the criminally minded might be able to imagine.

Mr Pirate I understand your point ... but remember where H2G2 originated from ...

For me toryism is a bit analogous to a theocracy, with their free market gods and protection of the strong ethics (rather than the weak) etc.

ps I see you're a mathematician: I am hoping to develop an understanding of the history of mathematical concepts. If you can suggest some recommended reading and put that on your h2g2 myspace that will be very useful.

>> thou shall not commit murder,and I believe it to be a sin
to take your own life.Letting others do it is the same thing. <<


Oh dear. You've caught me in a grumpy mood, waking on a rainy
Sunday morning after a very pleasant Saturday afternoon and evening
of BBQ and beer at a gathering of almost 100 friends come together
for one last summer fling. Some of whom may well be at church as
we speak, nursing the same hangover as I. What we enjoyed together
yesterday - Life, the Universe and Little British Sportscars - does
not mean we all agree on what to do with our Sunday mornings.
So let's leave sin and god out of this for the moment.

Of course I have to agree that thou shalt not commit murder.
That is a basic condition of a fair and productive society.


But then the trouble begins. Now don't get me wrong, but logic
dictates that if an individual life is considered a valued and
respected aspect of each individual, such that any interference
- be it deliberate murder or accidental manslaugher that might
end that life - is considered wrong, then it is equally wrong
to deny that individual life the right to choose its own style,
manner, method and duration.

To say this another way, if it is wrong to interfere with a life
by ending it then it is equally wrong to prevent it from ending
itself. Just as one may ask others to protect our lives then we
should be able to ask others to assist in ending them when we
have decided it is time to go.

To prevent someone from ending their life when they choose
to do so is as wrong as ending their life when they have no
desire to die. Let live and let die.


~jwf~

argh teh interwebz ate my previous comment.

Which was: don't fall into the trap of thinking that atheists don't have a moral compass or direction. The commandments of the bible are (apart from the ones directly relating to worshiping idols etc) a sensible way to run a society - and your comment suggests that only Christians get it.

Well said

On a more general note - why does the BBC seemingly take such relish in displaying pictures of dead or suffering pets on the front page of their news site? Last week they had a dead cat dominating the page and today they have a picture of a badly burned dog. Is it really necessary to put such graphic images up to illustrate stories that are pretty self-explanatory?

My dear P.A.L.
I resplied to your post before turning the page
and seeing your further comments about your own
situation regarding an apparent miraculous cure
and your further concerns about state sponsored
euthenasia.

On these again I find we are in agreement. There is
much to be said for miracles and medical mysteries.
And obviously something must be said against state
sponsored life-ending procedures that only serve
the needs of accountants.

I must however maintain my own right to decide how
well and how long I shall live.


~jwf~

I agree, ~jwf~, the argument against euthanasia because his case was a "one off" and not typical (because which one is?) was used against allowing a doctor to end that chappie's life recently. So using the "well I didn't end my life and it worked out well" is equally invalid IMO.

Which is not to say that it's a great thing.

I think Diophantus of Alexandria; memory is vague now but he was a christian about 300AD, his book translated I think by TTL Heath in 1901 shows how they did mathematics in those days, a little logic and then a big jump to the solution.

That's the way I saw it but I didn't take a history of mathematics course.

" be it deliberate murder or accidental manslaugher that might
end that life - is considered wrong, then it is equally wrong
to deny that individual life the right to choose its own style,
manner, method and duration."

There are limits to free speech, and abuse of your own soul. I agree things can go seriously wrong, choosing how to die illustrates something really wrong.

"For me the bible is like a guide; it is a map to follow to allow us to prosper through life, and the docent is some kind of unknown force holding everything together.

Without this guide; I don't see any problems at all to go down the bank with an oozy, and help myself to a lot of dosh, or similar as the criminally minded might be able to imagine."

Mr. Pirate, am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying that without the Bible as a control on you, you would have no problem committing whatever crime caught your fancy?

If that is what you are actually saying . . .

and

please keep a grip on that "guide" as you apparently have no moral compass of your own.

and

if that's not what you mean, could you explain?


I've mentioned before an acquaintance who claimed to be a good Christian and also calmly said that if God ever allowed murder he already had his list made. People whose morality derives from (dubious) outside authority and who claim/admit they have no internal sense of right and wrong truly frighten me.

>>I agree things can go seriously wrong, choosing how to die illustrates something really wrong.<<

Well, yes, that's self-evidently true. Happy people don't choose to die. Why should other people have to suffer unendurable torment, pain and anguish because of a holy book they don't believe in?

As is often the case with issues such as these, it's not about religious freedoms: in fact it's the opposite. Those invoking the Bible in their arguments are seeking to force others to live by their beliefs, to deny freedom of conscience to others. If you don't believe in gay marriage/abortion/assisted suicide/euthanasia, don't take part in them - that's religious freedom. Do not inflict your beliefs on me.

As for the "I'd be an axe-murderer if it wasn't for the Bible" - I really don't think that's true. You've always struck me as a decent enough person PAL and without the Bible you'd just find other reasons to not to it. Millions of British people aren't Christians or followers of any other religion: we're not all axe-murderers.

>>...choosing how to die illustrates something really wrong. <<

Again we are in agreement. I could not and would not choose
the how, but I do insist on controlling the when.

I am no expert on dying and would find it necessary to rely on
experts to decide the best means given whatever circumstances
were causing me to choose the when of my dying. Happily, I am
not yet ready, but when the time does come I hope to have
unencumbered access to sympathetic expertise to assist me.


~jwf~

PS: anhaga's point about person's without internally sourced
morality is well taken.



But perhaps we should move this discussion to another thread
(perhaps revive the Dawkins thread) and let this one get back
to the news of the day.

Say, I see the Prince has his magic carpet ride with big guns.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/prince-harry-back-in-afghanistan-to-fly-helicopters-into-combat-1.945895

Ah but this will still be news of the day some where?
[[[


Well said ]]]
None of us ask to be born, that choice is taken out of our hands..Our Death (or rebirth) should be by our choice be it predetermined by a living will, or on the spur of a moment, be we healthy or sick at that time of our choosing. strange how ""I am just going outside and may be some time"" stirs up different emotions than Tony Nicklinson's words have done...

Even the hippocratic oath, cannot be used as an excuse now a days since I think less and less Drs swear it now, when, I say when as it is bound to become a fundimental right some time in the future, a vast amount of money spent on making the last days (sometime months)of the terminally ill comfortable in hospital will be able to be used to help other patients faster and sooner.

Question: is it a right only for the terminally ill? For example, the cops dragged someone off a bridge here last night - she was going to jump. Were they wrong to intervene?

I believe that it is not abnormal for people to consider suicide at some point in their life.

For most of us it would be no more that a fleeting thought - one of the options that is available to us to deal with a problem. That thought, thankfully is, for most of us, no more that a passing thought at the extreme end of the options and one that most of us would quickly dismiss as inapropriate. And we don't return to that thought.

There are a number of things that might influence us one way or another. In my experience, one of the most frequent and significant influences at these times of crisis is alcohol. It would probably be right to intervene where alcohol is involved. I have had the opportunity to interview a number of people who have attempted suicide whilst under the influence of alcohol. Almost without exception they have expressed a sense of relief that they made an unsuccessful attempt at that time.

Some years ago I was faced with a man who was suffering from an illness that he knew would kill him and that the end would be unpleasant. He made the decision to take his own life whilst he could. He had thought this through and presented a very convincing case for his choice. He planned carefully and took his own life.

Nobody with an ounce of compassion had any moral right to stand in his way. Religion is not relevant in this discussion. Humanity is.

PP.