h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

It's nature AND nurture and more!

yup, the whole vindaloo

Abi, why do you say it is nature? What child who has experienced a wide variety of *flavours* of mankind all their lives would naturally chose to dislike or feel bad about a particular one? If they knew enough of everyone they would find that some were not their favourite and some were, but most likely the range would spread over the spectrum. If they didn't know enough of *them* all then it would be the poorest form of nurturing.

I find the nature arguement fairly insulting, actually.

It's nature to notice differences, and to be wary of things outside your experience. Whether that natural tendency manifests itself as prejudice or acceptance is dependent on nurture.

If children are taught to distrust anything new, they will end up being racist, disliking foreign foods, thinking that a different political party means inevitable disaster and so on. If a child is taught to enjoy new experiences then they will accept different cultures and learn to see the potential in changes.

When I was a child I was subject to some racist abuse, other children calling me dirty and stupid, but I was also teased by others because I spoke with a 'posh' accent - the 'you think you're so clever with your posh voice' variety of remark, which seemed to me two completely incompatible attitudes. Both seem to me to be a simple rejection of anything not totally 'normal' to the children involved, and rather stupid (which makes the second accusation rather more accurate, really - I did think I was cleverer than the kind of children who made those remarks).

I didn't get nearly as much abuse as the girl at my school with serious eczema, or the boy with a very fat mother. Catherine was treated like a leper and ended up trying to commit suicide.

*It's nature to notice differences*

If a child is brought up in a mixed community from birth for instance, with contact and interaction with everyone, there is no *difference*. Only an adult will point out differences in colour or habit or belief. To a child those mean nothing more than personality would.

There would be a difference between *our* sort of community, where these things are not noticed, and *their* communities, where they are.

Noggin

Having not bothered to read most of the backlog, i'm not really sure where this conversation is up to (something to do with a nature vs. nutrure argument, I think) but I'll return to the original topic.
Basically, mixed race 'breeding' makes perfect sense - partly fo r the biological reasons mentioned earlier, and because there's no reason other than stupidity not to. If you are in any way of english descent then your already a mongrel, so tough.

'If a child is brought up in a mixed community from birth for instance'

That's how nurture makes a difference. If you show a four month old baby for the first time a man with a beard, or someone wearing glasses, they will be scared. All babies notice differences between people and children do too, whether or not those differences are something they're used to. All but the unlucky ones will already have learned how irrelevant those differences are by the time they are toddlers, the rest either work it out for themselves when they are older or lead restricted lives, depriving themselves of the chance to interact happily with a large proportion of the world's population.

hi Cmaster,

Yes, can see where this thread might not make any sense to someone just popping in. If you like, read the first page and then read pages - what? - 220? somwhere around there , where the odious PYT makes his spectacular return. But ya know - only if you feel like it.

must sleep now - see y'all later . . .

az

I was not referring to the race in my last post. I did not see race was the current topic, when I said it is nature & nuture and more. Just sloppiness on my part in not going back to read.

My page has always said it is both; nature and nuture. Big topic for me

I would still stand by my statement that all have an effect on behaviors in general. Everyone notices differences,when you are a kid all is a FIRST at some time. The nuturing hopefully(as someone said earlier) and experience should be the teacher in that moment.

You are intimidated by size as a child, adult sizes do not remain intimidating. Human nature CAN be insulting if not nurtured and educated and supported.

Zoomer;
Noticing or questioning and hating are worlds apart!

Kids notice, that is nature
Adults teach hate or love, that is nuture.

I find nature vs nurture a very interesting topic. Is environment nurture? Or is it exclusively what one is taught? I can't see a toddler having any predjudices, although as it has been pointed out, fear of the unknown can become dislike or even hatred. Given that we all start from square one, when someone is taught to accept things at face value, is that nurture or merely reinforcement of nature?

I think that is nuture , when someone is taught to accept people( things) at face value.

Experiences can further enforce teaching or challenge what you have been taught. Perpectives about blame and personal responsibilty to name just one area can distort those lessons.

Unfortunately not all humans teach acceptance. Some humans nurture exclusiveness and seperateness

*when someone is taught to accept people*

I tend to dissagree. We are all accepting as children. Fear and frustrations need to be soothed and explained, but generally speaking we are all born quite accepting, don't you think?

I have seen very young children (4 or 5 years) not accept other children. In this particular case it wasn't any visible difference (all were white little girls within 1 year of each other.) But one little girl (my daughter) was not accepted. I think it was because they didn't know her as well as they knew each other. It broke my heart to watch. I think many people have a tendency to gravitate towards people with whom they have something in common. I do agree that children are very accepting, but it does not take long for them to learn not to be.

I think enviornment is part of the nurture.
IF humans (big if) are born healthy, they are naturally accepting and curious.

Humans are very dependant, their personality is affected by their parents long before words come into play. What we are born with is perfect, then it gets messed with!

*when someone is taught to accept things*
phrase was yours zoomer, I substituted the word people for things, although I'm not sure if it matters

I have always found children fairly accepting of me - despite the fact I do not look like any streotypical father images. However I have also seen adults who children shy away from. I'm not talking about people with deformaties or bad mannerisms, watch toddlers when an adult aproaches them. Some are very accepting of anyone - presumably they have a loving home environment. Others will shy away some people, for no apparent reason.

Incidently it annoys the hell out of me when people say I couldn't be bothered to read the backlog - if they're interested enough to want to contribute, then how do they know that the point they wish to contribute hasn't already been made, analysed, accepted or discarded, and digested. Or do they just believe they are the only person who could have this totally unique perspective ?

Actually, I think we try to dumb our kids down too much.

As a bearded man with glasses, I have found that it depends on the kid, not the age.
It also depends, sometimes, on their silly mothers, some of whom abhor glasses for cosmetic reasons and had the hair on their own faces completely removed down to the brows as a sweet-sixteen gift...

agh.

Children have heightened sensibilities compared to the bruised and callused adult.
They smell things we can't anymore.
They feel things we can barely remember.
If a child finds something unpleasant, unless it involves personal hygiene, or an imitation of Tourette's Syndrome, then they probably should be allowed to indulge in their choice.

When I was a child, I could smell, taste, feel and hear almost everything. I had trouble sleeping at nights unless I had an old pillow case and my ears covered. Whenever my mother insisted upon washing my pillow case, the smell of the scents from the detergent and softeners almost made me sick.

If a child doesn't like a particular person, then indulge them a bit.
They may be able to sense something you can't.
When I was a kid, I could smell my teacher's illnesses, so that I was not suprised when one or two turned up deathly sick.

The opposite of racism seems to be this politically correct inclusivity that ignores the fact that some people are just offensive, personally, by themselves.

It doesn't have anything to do with color or culture. That person just doesn't, um, click, with others.

Maybe they should be allowed to click with their own,
Instead of being forced to move with the herd.

Culture can be such a guiding force that adults who were uncomfortable children will turn around and make their own children uncomfortable under the guise of "introducing them to reality".

Maybe the child is the Reality.