h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

and the town of Craven Arms in shropshire (what was it about the arms that was cowardly I wonder?)

Unfamiliar with the subtlest forms of Brit humour when I can't hear the voice behind it, I have to ask if some of us aren't 'taking the mickey' here. No one would ever name a place 'Quivering Coward'. Noel Coward notwithstanding.

Surely Craven as a proper noun is referencing the Raven, noble black bird of great spirit and strength. Ravenscrag, is the name of the Montreal home of Sir Robert Allen, founder of the Royal Mail Line and I wonder if Craven is perhaps a shortened variant of the 'crag of the raven'.

But then there's still Gravenhurst to consider. Hmmmm.

*oops that should have been Sir Hugh - his friend was Robert, Robbie Burns...* quothe the Raven.

Well, that's Gravenhurst covered. Next!

Sorry but that's a Canadian habit that has always bothered me - it should be "Rabbie Burns"

....only this and nothing more.

Beth

The reason why craven isn't listed in dictionaries as a past participle is because the verb and noun were both formed from the adjective, itself progeny of the Old French cravante (defeated), which is a past participle.

Craven Arms must be named after one of the Earls of Craven, as there's only one Craven coat of arms. They were a Yorkshire family (from the Craven area would be my guess), but I suppose their sphere of influence could have extended as far as Shropshire. The First Earl was one of the more prominent Royalists, so there are probably a few Cravens in the Carolinas too.

The Craven Heifer is the name of a specific prize-winning heifer from Craven, immortalized in one of the better known examples of bloated animal portraits (I can't remember the painter's name, but if you can recall having seen a painting of a monstruously fat cow, it's probably 'The Craven Heifer') Georgian farmers seemed so fond of. The cow even went on to appear on local banknotes.

As to the somewhat perplexing issue of why a family would chose to have the name Craven in the first place, I offer three options:

a) The Normans applied the insulting moniker "le Cravante" to one of Harold's surviving nobles, and he decided to retain it to serve as a constant reminder to many of his Yorkshire neighbours that he had at least shown up for the battle while they stayed at home.

b) Despite being in Yorkshire, the Ancient British tribe of the Cravens actually spoke Welsh, and took their name from the Welsh word craf (garlic), as the plant was commonly found in the area.

c) What John said.

Only one is true. Take your pick

Hi

I have an alternative answer, but there was no letter assigned to 'none of the above' in your quiz! (only kidding )Never mind, here's what I got from my encyclopaedia:

"The traditional name applies to the distinctive limestone country of the central Pennines, where the gritstone-capped summits of Ingleborough, Pen-y-Ghent, and Whernside exceed 2,000 feet (610 m)."

And then this, but I have starred the (most) relevant info to save people who aren't interested in geology from ploughing through it.

"In deeper-water carbonate regimes on the margins of the continents, limestones become finer-grained and the biotic component less readily recognizable; crinoids and bryozoans are only a minor component. These deposits are termed the Waulsortian facies, and mounds cored by carbonate mud formed on ramps that extended from the shelf areas into deeper water. Famous exposures of such mounds occur in the Franco-Belgian Basin near Namur in south-central Belgium; southwestern Ireland, particularly County Galway; ***the Craven basin in northern England***; and the Sacramento Mountains of southern New Mexico in the United States. The Waulsortian mounds lack an obvious baffling or framework-building organism that would have formed these cores, although cryptostomous bryozoans have been observed in mounds in New Mexico and crinoid "halos" are associated with mounds in both Europe and North America."

It all comes from the Brittanica 99 Edition (CD-Rom).

I don't really know what this is all about but it seems to be an argument for the source of the place-name. As to whether this helps to establish the 'original source' of the word, I'm not sure. Just an idea and its results.

Spiff

How is it a source of the name? It seems to indicate that some sort of geographical feature can be found in the Craven area - not that the craven area is named after the feature....

Hi

you could be right, I just thought ""The traditional name applies to the distinctive limestone country of the central Pennines" seemed to suggest that the area was named after the rock rather than vice-versa. I admit that sounds a bit weak. Sorry 'bout that.

Basically, none of the options suggested so far felt right, so I had a quick think and a quick look and came up with something else.

So Mycroft, do you know the 'real' answer, then? (or anyone else for that matter)

Spiff

Of course I know the real answer. Do you think the "only one is true" bit in my last post was insufficiently clear?

I figured it just *might* be a double bluff!


Spiff

(Shouting loudly in a westerly direction)

Kaeori, my lovely,
(and anyone else who is too polite to object)
No longer is it a seasonal delight, it is available 24 hours a day!
I speak of nothing less than "Mornington Crescent" and "Late arrivals at I'm sorry I haven't a clue".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/h2/h2.cgi?state=view&board=radio4.game

Father Christmas has come early this year.

Rats,

I forgot to change the heading of my previous posting to:
"Just one of my cravings".

I'll have a B please Mycroft.

I, coming from Leeds,always thought the heifers were named after the area just outside Harrogate, which means the word could either be of Viking origin, or obscure "Harrogate posh".
I'm not sure, but the Craven dairies could be the daddy of Asda,
( which is actually the short form of Associated Dairies).(Isn't English wonderful).
I've always thought English is great in its flexibility and the way its always evolving, ( except for the americanisms and the bits I hate, which sound ugly to my ears).( Oh yes, and the apostrophe s which I'm even less sure I use correctly the more I read).

Reading back on the postings, I would point out that the Normans were particularly unpopular in Yorkshire.
Ever heard of " The Ravaging of the North"?
Thats what William did to us,an early attempt at genocide.

I'll have a "p" please Carol ( who, by the way, used to live in Calverley ( pronounced "Carverley", or alternatively "pretty little vilLage taken over by posh people and drowned in twee building estates" ) near Leeds).

Having read back even further, For welsh do you not mean Celt (see noted stone graffito on Ilkley Moor)?
And who would name themselves after Garlic (tho' it still grows wild in Bolton Abbey woods and elsewhere in the Dales)?

Ah, well, you really do learn something new every day (especially on this site)! Asda comes from Associated Dairies, eh? Well I never! Thanks for that, Beanfoto.

As for Mycroft's multiple choice quiz, I guess I'll have a 'b' as well. The truth in the fact that Welsh is most closely related to the language of the Ancient Britons (ie pre-Angle-Saxon-Jute 'invasions') is the only fact in there that I can remotely verify without doing some more digging.

So come on then, Sherlock (er, sorry, Mycroft!), you gonna spill the beans or what?

Beans and Garlic, an unbeatable combination!

The correct answer to Mycroft's quiz is B, the garlic.

Simul-posted with you on that Welsh/Celt thing, there, Beanfoto.

Yes, Celt, but as the various waves of 'invaders' (not exactly an organised military operation, more like an irregular flow of groups of attackers) came to the British Isles after getting pushed off the continent, forcibly establishing themselves all along the East coast, they pushed the Britons steadily West and North. Thus Welsh and Scots being 'Celts' as compared to 'Anglo-Saxons'.

By the time the Normans arrived, some 400 years after the Anglo-Saxon tribes started to arrive, the Anglo-Saxons had in turn had been pushed of their lands in the North and East (of England) by the arrival of the Vikings (specifically the Danes). The people of Yorkshire were already of very different origin than the people of Wales or those of the South/Southwest of England. By 1066, Yorkshire had been held by the Danes for the best part of 200 years, with 'Jorvik' as the 'capital' of a 'kingdom' in its own right. Equally, the Welsh, who would be described as 'Celts' ie descended from the 'Ancient Britons', had long been pushed into the mountains of what is today called 'Wales' (The name is derived from the A-S, OEng word meaning 'foreigner'. Charming, considering *they* were supposed to be the invaders!).

It is also curious to think that the 'Normans' (meaning 'North men'), were basically descended from Vikings who settled in what is now Normandy in the 9th and 10th Centuries. They came to an agreement with the French rulers of the time and were acknowledged as having the right to settle there permanently and rule as Dukes under their French feudal lord.

The Vikings were very successful at settling and prospering in the regions where they managed to establish themselves (by force), quickly adapting to the customs of the people they found there (as they did in 'Jorvik'). Later, (though not that much later, in historical terms), having 'become' Normans rather than Vikings, the dukes of Normandy became involved in English affairs. William the B*****d (as he was known before he did any significant conquering) *did* have a 'legitimate' claim to the English throne. Edward the Confessor had 'allegedly' promised William would be king after his death.

So basically, the Anglo-Saxons had just about got rid of the Danes in the North (that's what old Harold was up to at Stamford Bridge directly before Hastings) when another load turned up from the South!

S**t, I'm rambling on about history!

Sorry! I think it was relevant when I started!