h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

What are the origins of the word 'clever' in English?

Clever seems to be one of those "origin unknown" words. It is recorded as far back as 1595, originally with the spelling "cliver", but where it came from nobody knows, possibly from Scandinavia. There is a similar word in Danish, "klover", meaning alert and skilful.

By the way, that was a clever reply you gave earlier, Mycroft. I particularly liked the bit where you hit the "Post Message" button before you had typed in any text.

So clever is unknown. Where did box come from then?

Box seems to have come through Latin from the Greek word "pyxis" which itself came from the Greek "pyxos" a type of tree still called "Box" in English. We think of boxes as rectangular with flat cardboard sides, but originally they would have been made using thin straight rods tied together with string. You can still see this type of box being made today in Egypt. My guess is that the ancient Greeks used boxwood to make boxes.

I seem to have read somewhere that 'clever' in old english meant crafty. Smart, but not necessarily in the nicest way. Hence the adage: "Be good, sweet maid, and let who will be clever". It's not being patronising, it's saying that good beats clever any day!

Anyway, that's what I heard. See also "How to be an alien" by George Mikes - apart from anything else it's screamingly funny.

Cadi

Well, having posed the question, I'm pleased to see it's giving our best and brightest a tuff time!

Clever always has a slightly negative aspect to it here (Canada). Most often used as 'Now, don't be clever!' when confronting a smartarse. It is seldom a genuine compliment, but sometimes is used begrudgedly in a situation where a quick fix solution is needed and someone has a clever idea. Also, to say someone is 'a clever lad' is generally taken as positive, but a criticism I heard all my life has been, 'Too clever by half!'

Anyway, I thought I had a handle on clever, but I guess it's 'craftier' than I reckoned, though not as scheming or premeditated, more spontaneously creative.

And 'box clever' (Corry St), or 'boxing clever' as you folks seem to know it, remains a bit of a mystery. So perhaps it's safe to suggest Dr Who is very 'box clever' !

~j~

In the idiom of the source of the 'box clever' question (ie Coronation Street), I suspect the most common negative usage for clever would be in the word 'cleverclogs'.

Yes!
Cleverclogs seems to be used when someone is particularly inept or clumsy. Usually very dismissive and patronising and used mostly toward children and subordinates.
~j~

Cleverclogs = Knowall.

I was just wondering - given 'cleverclogs', and the similar 'bossyboots', I was wondering if there are any other shoe-related alliterative insults?

Twinkletoes ...?


~j~

Am I alone in having assumed in the past that 'box(ing) clever' was a verb + adverb construction (I know 'clever' is an adj, but here I assume it is modifying a verb, alors...), rather than an adjectival one, as jwf (hiya, jw ) seems to be describing?

Nobody seems to be able to put their finger on this one. Interesting question, obviously.

Oh I see ... you mean 'boxing' as a verb. To be boxing cleverly. Like 'sailing smoothly'. Hmmm...
Well as I say, on Corry it's usually just 'box clever' and I assumed the construction was like 'bag clever' or 'pyramid clever' or 'post dumb' or, (takes deep breath) more reasonably, 'street smart' or 'bog standard'.
It's usually used with the verb 'to be'. Not usually as 'he is box clever' or 'you are' but rather that an idea 'is box clever' or 'was' or now that I think of it yes, even 'He is/was BEING box clever'.
~j~

That is a really unusal use of the phrase, I wonder if it is manchester-specific? I have only ever heard the phrase used more like your 'sailing smoothly', eg 'If you box clever you could get that promotion', similar to 'If you play your cards right you could get that promotion'.

There used to be a really irritating phrase on Brookie where they said things were bos-this and bos-that. Never worked out what it meant.

Not a corry or brookie fan,
k

Hello all,

Since the chances of me reading 3315 posts of backlog are nil, niller than nil, in fact, I have decided to lurk here a while.

Hope that's ok with y'all.

Ben

Y'may find it a bit slow at the weekend. Mosta these folks seem to be weekday scivers. Or is it spelt skivers? I've seen both here abouts. And no arguing about how I spelled spelt, we've done that bit!
~jwf~

Definitely skivers.

If I may return to the 'box clever' question. My first thought was that the boxing analogy was the correct one - ie dodging back and forth to avoid trouble.

However, on further thought it occurs to me that in Glasgow slang it would not be unusual to use 'box' for head or brain and sometimes 'brainbox' for head.

It is not too much of a stretch to take 'box clever' to mean something like 'it was a good idea at the time' - ie the brain has come up with and idea that was impractical in the real world. Hence a bit of a put down.

Beth