h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Sleep.

And dream.

For that is the foundation of our reality.

I do the same.

Yes, Analiese, I know about MacArthur and the Bonus Marchers.
I still find that a bit upsetting.

Actually, I agree with you on quite a bit.

I'm just saying that simplicity is not the answer.
The problem is not simple and I doubt the answer is either.

Actually, the UN did have various problems with the Vietnam war. You just have to go and look. The bombing of Hanoi and the napalming and the Agent Orange generated many concerns. The 'safe hamlet' programs and the 'Hearts and minds' ideals caused a lot of debate.
And some of those who protested the war were veterans from previous wars, just as today. And many who protested the Vietnam conflict were veterans of that war who came home and realized that the truth was not being told.

And we lost.

Many are concerned that we will lose this one.

*I'm just trying to understand this very confusing world!!!*

I can understand that dragonfly but maybe until you do you should
hold off on statements like these.

*Come on. We're monstrous*

*Victimized by our mass stupidity, the propaganda, the patriotism...*

*And didn't Saddam recently make a statement about the SLAVES under president Bush!?? *

*We've had an empire*

*Come on. We're monstrous*

*We the People are only peons*

Context, context, context.

What is the threat? Iraq has been strangled by sanctions and is holding on to the remnants of war machine built by Western Europe to antagonize and weaken the fundamentalist regime in Iran. They have an army because they are surrounded by enemies in an unstable part of the world. Their leader is a vile dictator who spent most of his career being propelled in to power and later propped up by the U.S. government. He was given biological and chemical weapons by the U.S. when Don Rumsfeld himself was our special envoy to the Middle East. Those are the same weapons we are looking for today, and will use as our pretext to complete our destruction of what was once a modern nation. The real threat will come from the children who grow up in the ashes of the chaos that will result from this war, who will spend their childhood shaped by the pain of their nation. Take a look at Afganistan to get an idea of what a nation turns into after being used as a testing ground for the armies of superpowers. And remember, the men who killed alll those poeple on September 11 came primarily from Saudi Arabia, one of our allies in that part of the world. Their leader also happens to be a business partner of George H.W. Bush in an arms dealing syndicate, which would preclude "regime change" in that nation, even though it is the largest breeder of fundamentalism on record, having been the philosophical rasining ground for a young Osama Bin Ladin. Real threats abound in this world, and to see them where they are not requires a great leap of ignorance and inattention.

Well, Boomer, you're of course entitled to your opinions, as we all are. But I wonder what's skewed about my point of reference?

I think I've pretty much shown that the current situation with respect to the American government's relations with the rest of world isn't anomalous or aberrant, but part of a pattern of abuse that goes back at least 200 years. If that isn't so, why don't you refute it instead of merely calling it skewed?

Well, let me guess. I bet you know it's true but you don't want to know that. You want to know something different, believe something else. Because if it's true, then the fools you might have elected to lead you are quite dangerous, not merely to rest of world but to you.

That would be a very prudent insight I think. Bush and Company is already dismantling the constitution under their version of martial law. "We are at war," Bush says. And Bush himself recently articulated very clearly the government's position when he said, "We don't need permission." That's how much he respects the rest of the world and you as well. If you don't like it, too bad, sucker!!

And it's really not THAT complicated.

What's complex about pillaging other people's countries? What's complex about looting your own country? The fool doesn't even try to conceal it. He doesn't even ask first because he doesn't need your permission or anyone else's. And he's probably counting on you sitting on your hands because you think it's too complicated to figure out, much less do anything. Is he really correct about that?

So, I think what's really skewed here besides the government's obviously skewed toward imperialism stance is your stance that's skewed towards impotence and doing nothing.

My God, what does it take for you to say enough is enough and mean it? Are you going to wait until they close the prison camp gate in your face? Are you going to wait until they put you on a reservation?

Probably you will, because I think you're already there and you know it but you don't want to face it. I'm sorry about that, I really am, but you have been warned, so take it or leave it or trust that your good intentions and reserved judgment will keep you safe, secure and free.

Sorry, I didn't mean to turn your name into a typo, Zoomer. How I got a B out of a Z is anybody's guess. They don't even look alike. Maybe I'm just having my own version of a generation gap, huh? Are you really a boomer, Zoomer? It's okay if you are. We've all got a be something I guess and some like me have got to learn to type.

"How do I know what I think until I write what I know?"

Starbirth, I'm here to learn. I have a firm spiritual belief that we are all here to learn. One of my strongest methods of learning involves discussion with others, and writing.

If I DON'T write down statements that I feel have some credence to them, then my dear!!! WHO is going to refute and challenge them!?? How will I get to a better understanding UNLESS I make statements that stir up some argument!??

I don't know where you live, but I live in the United States. It's a strange, often evil place to be, and I feel that the fact that I'm trying to reach out and comprehend this situation (mine, and the world's) is worthwhile. If you don't, you don't.

But I do. I'm here to learn. And we're all each other's teachers.

And the U.S. is victimized by our mass stupidity. It makes us passively accept current storms and believe that it's all too complex to do anything about. I'm learning myself, slowly, and painfully, that something CAN be done.

To be ignorant is to be a victim. I firmly believe that. And I'll argue it to the grave AND BACK!!!

The mind can be a prison as well as a gateway to freedom.

The above sentiments are very admirable. I respect them. However in order for you to learn and gain better understanding you do not need to make statements inditing a whole people. Surely all americans do not fit the panoptic statements you made below. You do not need to
express vitriol towards yourself and your countrymen to state your opposition towards your goverments policy's you dis agree with. Statements like below only cause alienation pain and anger.

Dragonfly I applaud your search for knowledge and attempt to reach out. It is the manner you have choosen to do it i disagree with.
and watch those double negatives.

Analiese, I hope I wasn't offensive. I just meant that your point of view was framed by different points of reference. You have an on-going battle with the US government concerning First Nations rights and in addition you live there. I only meant to say that the diverse opinions posted by all of us here are skewed in our own ways, but yours is particularly unique. Personally I dislike what the US government is currently, but I hope that this too shall pass.

Hey, I still think we're an ugly nation, but maybe I just read too much. Maybe some alienation, pain and anger will be the pathway(harsh though it is!!!) to some understanding. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I shouldn't read Swift too closely. Maybe I'm just rambling and generally upset with things. Maybe maybe maybe.

No one really knows.

I love how others can criticize the U.S. a little and yet not speak of what they themselves seek from the process of such criticism and inspection. The fact that I do try to defend my own reasoning behind what is interpreted as erratic and destructive commentary, and that I seem perhaps as self-righteous as the president... well... Herrrmmm.... Maybe I am. And maybe I'm just complex myself.

Why the bloody hell can't I criticise my fellow man!?? So many others are. Maybe you think I blindly criticise just as others blindly praise!??

I've tried not to write blindly, but to read from what is inside of me. And perhaps that's too narrow a view.

And all too often, words are misread because they have been miswritten or, words by nature can sometimes do so little.

Thanks for the criticism. I am not entirely sure what my next step is, having read it three or four times, still trying to grasp and understand it. How stupid am I?

Funny that this thread begins with a question about American pride, and maybe I'm taking things too personal and I see myself defending personal pride. I've gotta go. Be back later.

we the people are peons... I believe that. To take it too literally is dangerous. Surely it can't apply to all, starbirth. Just as words sometimes fall short of power, sometimes they are granted unfair amounts of power.

And "we the people are peons" ***does**** support my feelings of resentment towards the government. The intent was not alienation, though it was said in anger. We are alienated by our government, a system of propaganda and patriotism.

That was said a bit out of sympathy. Guess I should have used more smilies or something.

Here I go again.... another idea... And then I promise to get off the soapbox...

We are alienated in the U.S.. Because we consistently fail to consider that some other nation might have something better to offer, some better idea. Look at Bush ready to go ahead and bomb away: "we can do it without their permission".

We alienate ourselves via the government we elect.

Still so much to learn.

You are intitled to your opinion. If you feel that way maybe you should try to change things. You can never read to much but it is a good idea to balance out your reading to read peoples thoughts on both sides of issues.



When you lump together a whole race or nation and critisize them as a whole yes it is blind critication

How stupid am I?
Never ask an adversary a question unless you know his answer. You might not like the responce So there is no misunderstanding that was my attempt at humor. I do not believe you are stupid. I do believe like all of us {humans) you can always learn more. I have always found one of the best ways to learn is from our elders.

You're not offensive, Zoomer. If we disagree, we disagree. What's offensive about that?

If I ever get to be old enough so I'm an Elder, then maybe I can be tolerant, but now I fight for what I think is right. Because Bush, who IS OLD ENOUGH to be an Elder, is acting like a foolish boy and he's ordering other boys to act foolish too.

It sort of like as the Americans ruin their land and water, they look to the indian land and water to bail them out, but there's not enough left to tolerate that anymore. Likewise, as American businesses exploit their markets, they look for more markets to exploit, and they seem unconstrained about using coercion or intimidation or outright warfare to support the exploitation. That's not going to fly much longer.

So if saying that is offensive, I'm sorry, but somebody should say it. This nonsense shouldn't go unchallenged just to be polite. Bush isn't polite. I haven't heard him even once apologize for calling the rest of the world irrelevant, have you?

I apologize though, Zoomer, for addressing you as if you were an American because I think maybe you're not, and if that's true then you can blow off my stuff with my compliments.

::bookmarking::

Analiese- Yes I am not a US resident or citizen. That is not any kind of reason to *blow off* what you say. I don't believe I have ever actually disagreed with you, I simply want to explore different points of view.
"An enemy of my enemy is my friend" is too strong of a statement here, since the enemies of the US are not at all my friends, but let's just say we have a common dislike!

<"An enemy of my enemy is my friend" is too strong of a statement here, since the enemies of the US are not at all my friends, but let's just say we have a common dislike>

I realize you have strong disagreement with policys of the United States. However just to clarify do you consider the United States your enemy?