h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Please, , may I kindly ask that this question doesn't become a battle, because it contains the word Religion in it's subject line.

Maybe religious acts is not the right term to use, but I don't know what other expression to use.

Anyway, my question is how should non-believers react to enquiries from people who hold a religious belief, to partake of an act that involves religious beliefs?

This includes being asked to be a God Parent, praying for someone, whether it be for health reasons, or other, attending services in religious buildings and expected to partake in the religious aspects of the ceremony, or any other religious practices I have forgotten?

Also, should the people of a religious persuasion ask them to partake of such acts.

I ask because, many years ago I was asked to be a God parent, which I declined because, as an agnostic, I could not truly accept the offer to raise a child in the Christian tradition. As a non-believer how could I? But I agreed to be a guardian in the event that I would be required to do so.

I did accept the position of Best Man, on four occasions, but two were Registry Office weddings, with the other two being in Church, largely for the blessings, and I was not required to perform any act as a religious official.

The one I find hardest, is being asked to pray, or intercede, on behalf of someone. To pray for someone would imply a belief, which I don't have, yet to respond, without some form of slight being perceived, makes any response difficult, even more so where a death has occurred.

I'm sure there are others I haven't considered, and some that are a formality based on beliefs, like wearing black at a funeral.

Thoughts gratefully received, especially as I am now reaching that age where funerals are becoming more common, and where family are starting to expire.

And I have no problem with levity, but please, do not disrespect those who have religious beliefs as I, myself, do not.

I thoroughly enjoy visiting churches and graveyards both out of interest from the social and historical aspect, as well as a religious and secular viewpoint, but always with the utmost respect for both the buildings, and those using the buildings for their intended purpose.



MMF

Always a difficult one. I've been more and more atheist recently,so these situations have become less common, because it seems that very few of my current circle of friends are religious, and those that are know i'm not.

When asked to pray I sometimes reply with 'I'll keep them close to my heart', which often seems to be a good slippery get out.

Like you MMF, some of my favorite 'places' also happen to be loverly old religious buildings (cloisters and loverly acoustics in certain Church's spring to mind).

I've not come acorss the praying one... I'd definately have to refuse that, as I don't have a religious faith/belief.

I am a godparent, to two friend's children, which I didn't really have a problem with, as neither of the friends (or their whifes), are actually religious themselves (which does make one wonder why they wanted to do the God-parent thing),

I like something the Friends/Quackers do: "hold someone in the light". It means that you light a and think of that person, being alive or just deceased.

My mum used to light a candle for me and my siblings when we approached the exams period. I´m not a believer, but I really loved what my dear mama did. Now, many times, I light a few candles and think of her. After she died I used to light candles almost everyday. I don´t know why, I guess that in part it was following the tradition, another was because watching the flame, sort of relaxed me. It was a moment of sadness, remembrance, intimacy.

So, I think that you can say "I´ll light a candle for him/her" if you know that person.

Also, I attend religious acts like weddings or funerals. I just go and do as everyone else, except for the praying. It just can´t come out of my mouth, I dont feel it. Few know Im a non-believer. It really doesn´t matter to anyone. People only want people next to them in these situations.

Hi MMF

A good set of questions!

I think anyone who asks someone to be a 'God Parent' for their child has on obligation to first determine the faith of the person before asking. I would never consider accepting such a position unless I knew and agreed with what was expected of me.

When asked, or faced, with the situation of someone in distress, even a death, I usually offer to 'keep them in our thoughts' this does not require a deity

Serving as a member of a wedding party, or a funeral (perhaps as a pall bearer) does not require any religious commitment. Wearing black at a funeral is only a sign of respect, I don't think it is a requirement of the church. Even if it were does it really hurt you?

I once tried to be a Atheist, but I could not learn how to to reject any logical claim that a God might exist.

If you are not comfortable with religion you should not be forced to participate, on the other hand, just because you agree to follow the customs of a religion, or culture, it does not mean that you have to agree with their every stance. It is only respect for your family and friends - I am sure that 'God' or whatever you choose to call the 'Creator' does not care one way or the other.

There is a difference between ' respect for others' and 'blind faith' I think that there are far more Atheists who try to impose their views on others, than there are Christians who try to impose the opposite view (although there are a few Christians who do not deserve any attention at all.)

F S

~jwf~

'please, do not disrespect those who have religious beliefs as I, myself, do not.' - Excellent starting point and exactly why I think you do the right thing by declining God-parenthood.

For a Humanist / Agnostic, I go to church more at other people's invitation than I do for my own benefit (I love the sound of an organ in a church). On those times, when others are praying, I would take the opportunity to stand or sit in quiet contemplation. I would never kneel - I would view that as an act of defference. I don't sing hymns. I will stand out of respect for others (and not doing so is a bit awkward).

I eat pancakes. It has always struck me as odd that this sort of tradition, based on a bible story has sucked me in. I love pancakes and every Shrove Tuesday I pose the question, 'why do I only eat pancakes once a year?' This year I am going to have them more often.

And as I have grumbled here before, Mamonmas is utterly unavoidable.

PP.

I don't know how much actual faith I have. I like going to church now and then, but mostly it's been for other people's reasons - childrens singing, confirmations, weddings, funerals.

What I do believe is good for the soul though, is ceremonies and rites of passage. I think it's good to observe special occasions, and to do it together. If someone chooses a religious frame for it, then it's their choice. If it's an atheist version, good too.

Now I've already forgotten the actual question...

My only godson is in his mid 40s.He was born in Dublin and at the time it was more important for his(believing) Protestant parents to find a non-Catholic godmother for him than to question my non-beliefs.. Since he became an adult he has showered more gifts on me than I have on him.
I volunteer in Lincoln cathedral on Mondays. The shop sells the usual tourist stuff including local wine(!) and beer with very nice glassware to drink it out of. Large middle-aged gent browsing so I asked if I could tempt him to anything. He waved his hand in the air and said, "I wouldn't give any of this tat house room. I am a Christian and I don't approve of gift shops in the house of god"
There were several tempting answers to that but I bit my tongue even when harangued on the question of who brought Christianity to England. He was firmly of the opinion that it was Joseph of Aramathea.
When I go to weddings and funerals I conform to expected norms. It always amuses me that I as an atheist always know the words of creeds and hymns while the "believers" falter. (result of a daily "act of worship" from the ages of 5 to 18.

First a little bit about myself...

I am an atheist since about my mid teens. I didn't go to a confirmation and completely left the church a few years ago. My mother once apologized to me for having me baptized. On the other hand she never actively tried to influence me when I was a child. We just hardly ever went to church or anything, only sometimes at Christmas. I also remember overhearing a conversation of my mum with a priest who asked her to lead a group of me and other children as teacher for their first communion. She said something like she would never teach children such nonsense. At that age I did not understand this yet.
My father does not often talk about religion but he is an atheist too and so were my grandparents on mums side. Dad's mother on the other hand seems concearned because I never go to church and she once said to mum and me 'you are both pagans' to which I answered (truthfully) 'we're not even that'.

So, last year both of mums parents died. Especially grandpa was a firece and vocal disbeliever. I liked to talk about how he couldn't understand my uncle (mums brother) becoming religious for his religious wife.
When grandpa (and a few months later grandma) died my uncle organized a Catholic service. I was there, out of respect for my uncle. I even read a verse to do them a favour. Inside I only cringed because I know grandpa would have hated it. I considered it a disrespect towards his disbelieve. After the actual funeral my parents, bf and I also went to church with the others. All of us felt a bit awkward, we didn't know when to stand up, when to sit down or anything. All four of us just felt very uncomfortable I think. we didn't kneel and we didn't take any bread or wine of course.

If I would be asked to be a God Parent I wouldn't do it. I'd thank the people for the offer and probably feel honored in some way, but I couldn't teach children 'nonsense' as my mother said.
Best Man / Bridesmaid is something different I think. Many people only marry in church for the atmosphere and I also don't feel like it comes with any real obligations. I also read a verse at my cousin's wedding to do him a favour.

I myself would never marry in a church and I wouldn't baptise my future children. If they would later choose to join a religion I can accept that.

As an architect I do like/am interested in churches and other religious buildings of course.

Let's see:

I can't imagine anyone asking me to be a god-parent. Anyone who knows me, knows my views on such things, and therefore would never ask me to commit to ensuring their child grew up with a particular superstition washed into their brain (that's the job description of god-parent, right?).

Ditto, I can't picture anyone who has met me more than once asking me to pray for anything. My response in such a happenstance would depend on the person and how well disposed I am towards them. If I have reason to dislike them - and it would need to be a good reason - I'd make clear that independent tests have shown that prayer doesn't work, and that therefore I won't be wasting my time. If possible I'll do something actually positive, like donating money to cancer research, say - something more directly productive than whining to their imaginary friend. If I was more neutrally disposed towards them, I'd probably just nod and smile and try to change the subject. I'm generally less appalled by people discussing inappropriate details of their sex life than I am by people sharing their religious proclivities. Still appalled, but just less so.

As for participating - I'll happily go to church to a friend's wedding. I'll sit where I'm told to sit, and I'll stand up and sit down when everyone else stands up and sits down. I'll keep quiet when required to. I won't sing sappy songs about things that don't exist, mainly because I can't sing and don't wish to make that fact clear to strangers, and I won't bow my head, close my eyes, clasp my hands or kneel. I will smile indulgently while others do so, and won't make a fuss.

Funerals are an interesting one. The funeral is for the benefit of those in pain, therefore it is incumbent to minimise their pain. However, I won't lie to them. I'll offer what support I can, but I won't tell them "they're in a better place", "they're with Ethel now", or similar. They're gone. I won't SAY that, but it's the truth. They're gone, you're still here and so am I. If you need anything, I'm here. And so on. Fear of death is ultimately what religion is all about. So funerals are where it's trickiest. Good luck with that. The best you can say is, if they suffered, they're not suffering any more. If they had a good life, say so. If they leave an enviable legacy, in the form of a happy family, say so. It's the best any of us can hope for.

When folks ask others to pray for them or someone close to them, they usually ask at large so I typically just don't reply one way or another. In person, if the request isn't one on one, I'd also just keep quiet and at most, nod respectfully. If asked one to pray personally for someone, I might say something along the lines of "I'll keep [you/her/them] in my thoughts."

There's no reason to be confrontational about most of these issues when it's just as easy to give no answer or a noncommittal one.

I don't believe in any god.

I'm godmother to my best friend's daughter. She knows I'm not religious, I know she's not, but if anything had happened and I'd had to step in I would probably have sent her to sunday school because as far as I'm concerned it's how I was brought up and it's part of my heritage. Neither of my parents were particularly religious either and I suspect sunday school was just a way of having some quiet time at the weekend!

I will attend weddings & funerals in church and behave as I am expected to. I will sing the hymns (I love singing in church even if I don't believe the words) and I will bow my head during prayer. At a funeral I would use this time to think about the person who's died and those they've left behind.

I celebrate Christmas in the usual mass-overindulgence way, and also easter. Again, it's my heritage.

If someone asked me to pray for someone, I would agree. As far as I'm concerned, the little white lie is harmless and may bring comfort. It's more important to respect someone else's feelings than to vocalise my private opinion on religion.

My lack of belief isn't relevant enough in my life for me to need to put it out there. It's a non-issue in general and I don't feel the need to proclaim myself as "An Atheist".

Deb

I am a lapsed Anglican who sends her kids to an Anglican primary school and occasionally attends the odd Anglican service but also actively participates in raising the kids as practising Eastern Orthodox goers. I think of myself as culturally religious. I do not believe, but I find the rituals comforting and the time and framework to think useful.

When in Orthodox churches I don't find, to be honest, that I am expected to do much except stay quiet and respectful. I don't cross myself in the required places, I don't light candles, I don't even always stand up or wear a headscarf. This doesn't seem to bother people. I participate fully in Anglican services, especially the hymns. I miss the hymns. If invited to a funeral or wedding in any religious setting, I'd do whatever was asked of me.

Basically, though, most rituals have get out clauses for non-practitioners for the really magic bits as standard. They dont want you doing things you don't believe in. You don't have to take communion for example. When I was practising Anglicanism, we were encouraged not to repeat bits of the service, especially the creed where you state your beliefs you were having doubts about. So I'd imagine that goes double for non-believers in general.

I wouldn't act as an Orthodox godparent because I wouldn't be allowed to - you have to be baptised Orthodox. I might for an Anglican, although weirdly I'd feel better if the person were doing it because they wanted their kid to be brought up in the church.

Does godparenting really include the guardianship clause these days? I thought that was a myth. I have willed my children's guardianship elsewhere, but then we were a bit pushed for suitable baptised Orthodox Christians for our kids.

Nobody has ever asked me to pray for anybody, except in the formal asking for prayers bits of a church service. I must come across as extremely anti religious or just generally unsympathetic. Deary me. If they did I would probably say yes and then not do it.

The only really* 'religious' person I know, and I know them very well, doesnt' ever go to any services, or 'organised' stuff. yet they're very traditional, in all respects of their Christian religion, but find most curent/modern 'versions' of teh various Christian 'sects' not to be within keeping of how they view their own relgion, based on their own (admitidly accademic) study of it, in multiple languages... its 'their own thing', as it were, and although they would find various 'sects' they could agree with, and be part of in and 'organised sense', none of them, they find still exist in a way they can wholey believe, in, agree, with, etc., within their understanding of the reading of the biblical texts, that they've done, over several decades... so the 'organised' 'ritualistic', actual ' 'ceramony' bits, that I guess for a lot of people is the 'mainstay' of their regligion, just ain't relivent, as he sees/understand it and, even as an athiest, I really rather approve of many of his views of the over... err... 'nice-ised' versions of 'religion/Christianit', as often practised by some of the err... 'versions' within the umbrella religion... even I kinda think half the time, they just miss the point... and I'm not even religious But, I think, for many, the religion, is but one small, often almost* insignificent point, within the broader reach of what it is they are doing, or trying to achieve... it ends up more being about the social cohesion, the social 'sense' of 'belonging', and the religion is almost an irrelivent 'glue' that just allows that to kinda occur dinny explain that well

2legs has it, methinks.

Not all who wear the robes believe, or still believe, but what they do have is the training and the ability to dispense that sense of quieting in bad times which may be through ritual (formal or disguised) or perhaps just your knowledge that they know and they care.


Whoever it was who invented religion, knew people.

Many thanks for the responses her.

Interesting that they were from either agnostics or atheists.

I feel more relaxed in how I handle such situations.

Thanks again.



MMF

I think its soemthing; one's response to such requests, that just has to vary, depending on the individual asking you... Not necessarily a clear-cut same response each time, as it were... Although, having said which, the preying thing in particular, if a non-believer is asked, oughta be a straight-forward response, 'I'm not religious, so I don't have 'faith', therefore preying by me, is of no use to anyone', basically... and, a religious person, really should understand and see, why it'd be a pointless act, for a non-believer to pray..

I'm godfather to a couple of my cousin's children, and to my niece. My family are quite old fashioned Catholic, and although I was raised as one, I don't believe in the religion myself.

Having said that though, I'm happy to be a godparent because whilst I don't personally believe in the religion, I respect the parents choice and their choice to raise their children in that religion until such a time as the child can make the decision for themselves, as I did. I still see being asked to be a godparent as quite a big thing, it shows that the parents trust you, even more so knowing that you don't share their faith.

And sometimes I think a non-religious person makes a better religious teacher, my own RE teacher at school (catholic upbringing, catholic school) was a defrocked priest (a tendency for ladies, progressive school) and he was able to teach us about the faith by teaching us how to pick it apart. His theory was that whilst a fair few people would stop believing, those that continued to would have a stronger faith. While those that stopped would have wasted their lives going through the motions.

So if any of my friends asked me to be a godparent, I would happily agree, and if need be I would step in and teach them about their faith, and bring them up in it until such a point where they were able to make their own informed decision. Although I would also probably make sure that their informed decision also included being informed about all religions. Except possibly Nighthooverism


As for visiting churches for other ceremonies, I stand when they stand, I sit when they sit, and I sit when they kneel. I keep quiet and respectful, and I'm happy for people to have their faith and their belief.

Last year my brother died, and he was a great believer in the catholic church, even going to retreats at monasteries. At his funeral mass the church was full to standing room only with several hundred people there. The majority of them weren't catholics, in fact I doubt the majority of them followed any religion, but they were there to show respect because my brother did.

My cousin was in the process of converting to Judiasm because his wife required it. His mother was concerned by his lack of belief and spoke to the Rabbi who said that it wasn't a problem... going through the rituals and processes would bring belief.

This gave me pause for thought.

then I recently spoke to a guy who was so anti-religious and he went to a friends funeral, upon arriving he saw a cross on the coffin and left because it was a religious occasion. That felt wrong to me.