h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Well, we can't disagree with the the horrible position that Sgt. Flipper finds himself in, I hope. He's there to carry out the orders of his senior officers, who're directed by the politicians, and ultimately by the White House.

What we can disagree about is US policy and its effect on the world.

We can also disagree about the methods (again, way over Sgt. Flipper's authority) used to engage the "enemy". This, I'm afraid, goes back to the US Army getting it's ass whooped (industry term) in Viet Nam.

Consider how the two armies engaged in Iraq are being engaged. OK, one of them has a lot more people out there. Also consider that one of them has a far greater experience in dealing with terrorism on a street level, and seems to be better at dealing with it. Sgt. Flipper, much as I respect your posts, you'd be far better off learning the difference between a rock and a grenade than shooting anyone who throws something at you. And before you fire off a post at me saying how difficult it is to tell the difference, I'd like to point out that British troops (your only allies in Iraq) have been doing it for thirty years. Why don't you ask one of *them* how it's done?

If you read his post carefully, you would have realized that in fact he doesn't shoot anyone who throws a rock at him. He stressed at least twice that he get's lots of rocks thrown at him, which he ignores.

The US lost Vietnam, no arguing that. They retreated. But to say that got their "ass whooped" that's a stretch. Consider the casualty figures (already posted to this thread). Some estimates say 1 million North Vietnamese dead, vs much fewer americans.

dave

Don't forget the Agent Orange that was dumped on the Vietnamese rainforests to kill the green, leafy vegetables. A lot of could have lived on them.

Lou Reed, excellent!
It's a pity I can't follow those links, but I heard on the radio about the fingerprinting of visitors etc, also that Brazil is retaliating by doing likewise!

Armies do not make policy. They carry out policy. If you dislike the policy, change the political system.

Armies do make policy.

Imagine what Martin Luther King, Adolf Hitler, George Washington, Ghandi or Cromwell could have achieved without the bodies to back them up. You dont have to kill to fight the system. But joining the army and pledging to kill or die to uphold that system does influence policy.

As for the reading of my words. The most I have ever personally down about rock throwing were rounds put into a wall. I have even not responded to hand grenades thrown by small children because I felt that it was a small enough threat to myself that I could would the shot. I have not killed anyone that I could have avoided. However, I have killed when it was in the best interests of protecting me and my men.

Armies do not make policy. I joined the army during the Clinton years. No where did I swear allegiance to any Bush. I swore to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States and protect the nation from all enemies foriegn and domestic. I joined for the nation. I love this country I have issues with a lot of policies carried on by its government. I have a vote to voice my opinion on that and a right to speak my mind as long as a do it as a personal civilian and not in any supposed official capacity. What I do not have is a right to chose what orders I believe I should follow. As long as they do not break the laws of the United States or Geneva Convention I am legally and morally bound to carry them out regardless of my personal oppinion.

So do not try and compare the last line to nazis. If I were ordered to shoot an unarmed civilian I would be legally and moraly bound to disobey that order and turn in the issuer of it. However I cannot chose the conflicts I will or will not deploy to.

And no, until you have had an RPG or 40K of explosive blow up your truck (I have had two blown out from under me) Until you hear the whine of bullets as they pass your head or medivac a close friend for mortar shrapnel, you will not fully UNDERSTAND what it means to be in a kill or be killed situation. You might think you have an idea but you cannot understand. I had trained deployed and been in a couple of minor scraps over the last ten years, but I never really understood until now.

And I will tell you what. The next time I meet a guy who jumped into Normandy or hit the beachead during d-day or guadalcanal I will have an idea what he went through but I won't understand that either.

okay. can we all agree that nobody knows what it's like to be somebody else?




Was anyone suggesting that they knew what it was like to be somebody else? I don't remember that. But, remember, Sarge: you don't know what it's like to be a whole lot of things; you have combat experience some of us may not have; and we each have experiences that you will never know.

It's truly great that you are keeping your moral sense and that you've not committed any crimes over there. I'm sure you are aware, however, that some members of the U.S. military have committed crimes in Iraq. And I'm sure you are aware of the alleged fraud that Haliburton has committed.

I suppose one could argue that until one is an executive of a multi-national corporation one will never "understand". And one might also argue that until you have been a UN diplomat you will never "understand". And until one is a citizen of a country that acknowledges and feels bound by "international law" one will never "understand".

But then, a statement that the other parties to a discussion will never understand is exactly the same as saying

Trunt, you once again misread me. My statement about the unintitiated not understand was directly in response to a posting of someone who felt that he knew about war and therfore chose not to participate. Sorry I know nothing personally of any illegal actions over here. The couple that have been prosecuted (i.e. the Marine COL for discharging his weapon NEAR a POW) show the fact that we do subscribe to "international law" via the Geneva convention. Haliburton is a corporation, with completly different motivations then US servicemen. Therefore I cannot see the relevance. Do I approve of the millions that Rumsfeld's former associates will be making? Not when I look at my paycheck

Trunt, you as always misread me. My statement about the unintitiated not understand was directly in response to a posting of someone who felt that he knew about war and therfore chose not to participate. Sorry I know nothing personally of any illegal actions over here. The couple that have been prosecuted (i.e. the Marine COL for discharging his weapon NEAR a POW) show the fact that we do subscribe to "international law" via the Geneva convention. Haliburton is a corporation, with completly different motivations then US servicemen. Therefore I cannot see the relevance. Do I approve of the millions that Rumsfeld's former associates will be making? Not when I look at my paycheck

Here is an extract of my response to one of your posts Sarge:

Here is a little bit of something for those of you condemning the actions of people doing things that you will never in your lives understand.

Your making a big assumption about what people can understand Flipper. Maybe its because I do understand somethings about war that I am not there ever consider that. Ever think that as a young man of I didnt think about good pay, roof over my head (or tent over my head), learn a trade, see the world, fight for my country AND DEFEND FREEDOM. Then I read about the Peterloo Masacre and knew the army was no place for me.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRpeterloo.htm

See I'd rather be a street cleaner than go round being shot at and shooting people to clean up politician's messes.

I hope things go well out there for you and everyone unfortunate enough to be involved.

Just because you are in the position you are in does not repeat not make you an infallible font of knowledge. Sorry much as I think your honest I also know that your posts are subjective and read them as such. There is also the fact that some issues you are too close to to be able to even attempt to be objective about. That is not a failing of yours but something given your position which is practically impossible.


...until you have had an RPG or 40K of explosive blow up your truck (I have had two blown out from under me) Until you hear the whine of bullets as they pass your head or medivac a close friend for mortar shrapnel, you will not fully UNDERSTAND what it means to be in a kill or be killed situation. You might think you have an idea but you cannot understand. I had trained deployed and been in a couple of minor scraps over the last ten years, but I never really understood until now.

Are you trying to suggest that the danger you are in gives you any better appreciation of the truth than anyone else or exclusive provenance to talk on the subjects we are discussing.

Due to cowarddice or wisdom I tend to avoid kill or be killed situations. People have threatened to kill me. People I was at school with are in prison for murder, my brother was stabbed while he was in the UK equivalent of Juvenial Hall. There were other school friends of mine who are dead now. Though I steer as wide as I can of kill or be killed situations but when someone threatens my mother things change and thats how I ended up being threatened with being shot by hells angel friends of a family who lived down our street. I refused to back down and they beat me up finally the police were called and dispersed the gang but no arrests were made.

So you are not alone in being brave when you think it is necessary.

I have known and know many serving soldiers both family members and close friends. People who think that a career in the forces was good for them and is good enough for their children aswell as an uncle who has many photos of himself smiling in Africa and Belize but bought himself out when his friend who was a few feet away had his head blown off in NI.

What each of them and you in your turn have done is made yourself the hired muscle of your commander in cheif. Once you strip away all the superfluous learn a trade, see the world stuff, you and all service personal are pawns in a game and hired killers. Which is why I never joined up.

Private industry is very much a part of the problem and solution.
It also has a lot to do with attitudes.

The Prez has stated more than once there are private citizen contractors losing their lives for the cause daily and unreported. I have a link somewhere with the ratio of military to corporate employees.

This is a look from the left but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater-
http://www.motherjones.com/news/dailymojo/2003/12/12_518.html
There is a definite push by the neocons to privitize the military more than it is now.

Sarge, you say you know nothing 'personally' of any illegal operations in Iraq... that's all very well, no one has implied that you *do* have any personal knowledge or involvement.
But there is no doubt at all, that illegal operations have been carried out.
Halliburton has committed fraud - even the Bushies have had to admit that.

Thanks for the link, abbi normal

Hi Della

Peaceful soap opera gripped Palestinians
A radio drama's nonviolent message aims at promoting creative
resolutions to conflict with Israel. By Nicole Gaouette
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0107/p01s04-wome.html

I wasn't gonna drift back but I could'nt resist.
Gotta go now

> I thought that the whole thing would be a fad, a passing paranoia similar to that after pearl harbour. As the years tick on and the surveillance and security and invasion of privacy become greater, I wonder if this is merely the opening stages of totalitarianism.

It looks like the government is full of schemers and plotters, unlike the government that existed when Pearl Harbor went down. I get the impression that the Republicans have some sort of master plan, that started with Reagan, and which Bush Jr. is trying to continue. Wolfowitz and Rove tested the waters and decided that now would be a good time to implement some of the steps in this master plan... but what's the goal of the Republican party? Is it just a faction within the party that believes in the concept of manifest destiny, and is trying to make the whole world dependent on American goods? Is this an attempt to make sure that we have plenty of oil, and that our economy doesn't go down the tubes?

It's enough to make you really paranoid!

Blicky. I am not saying that I am the only voice of truth of what is going on here. Nor am I denying your right to an opinion as to the motivation of the United States government. I am only saying that I am the most qualified to comment on the United States soldier serving in Iraq.
The yellow times article was what set off my string. Vilify Bush all you want. He has asked me to do what he himself would not. Avoided Vietnam by joining the National Guard and then stopped showing up to drill. In the states you cannot "buy out" of your contract you simply finish it. Of course after deserting from the Air National Guard he dresses up like a pilot and lands on an aircraft carrier. Yes, I can recognise propaganda when I see it. He is putting out the image of the "Warrior King." I don't like having smoke blown up my ass.

The United States is a country worth fighting for. At least it was in 1996, when I signed the papers. What it is now after 9-11 is a collection of paranoias. Bush, Aschcroft and Ridge are running rampant across the United States and setting the stage for a police state.

However, even if the local cops in S Carolina are sticking guns in kid’s faces at school does not mean the US soldier is doing the same thing in Iraq. There are a lot of reasons why we do what we do. Sure the college money was a hell of incentive, but I would not have gone Airborne Infantry if I did not think that this was a country worth defending.

You are confusing the two subjects. My grandfather felt that there were things worth dying and killing for. If he and many others from the US, Canada UK etc. not thought that way you would be typing in German my friend. Guess sometimes pawns and hired killers are a good thing.

Abbi, define contractors. There is a company called Global security that has "private citizen contractors" (read mercenaries) working here. They are mostly Filipinos and nice guys for being so hard-core. I met one who came here after contracting in Lebanon since 1978. Mostly the Halliburton, Brown and Root guys avoid danger at all costs.

Della, again I am defending the serviceman here not the government or its contractors. Are you saying that a serviceman has broken Geneva conventions and gotten away with it? Halliburton, sure they were waiting in the wings the whole time. Civilian contractors have long used political influence to rip off the government.

Lentilla I think the major difference is the technology age that we are in. I mean here we have people from Texas, Canada, New Zealand, England and Iraq bickering with each other. With the free flow of information and the ease of collecting it government will do what it always has done. Try and know everything. As long as we sit back and take it more and more measures will be put into place. Cameras scan the faces of crowds in Tampa Florida already, now fingerprinting at airports. Soon every move of every citizen will be stored and available for future reference.

I posted this to the Iraq discussion forum, but I thought it should go here to:

I don't know if this has already been posted here. It's an amazingly prophetic article written by The Onion, "America's Finest News Source". It's a hypothetical article written around the time Bush's inauguration:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3701/bush_nightmare.html

enjoy!

dave

Once again we agree Dave, the Onion rule - George drools!

The Onion's post 9/11 edition was probably the most profound bit of writing I saw after those tragic events.