h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

In response to your last point. I don't make the claim that America has no history. Only that we do not have the type of history that other countries have. We started as a country in the late 1700's. The birth of Britain is clearly a much earlier date.

As to the fact that an American started this thread. No I did not know that. However it does disturb me....

On perfection, you being such a literalist would have taken the reply that there is nothing wrong with Americans as a claim of perfection. Are we perfect? No I don't think that is true of anyone, you are absolutely right. But I will not agree that there is something fundamentally wrong with our nation. Humanity in nature is most assuredly flawed and in some way shape or form imperfect. This being true all our pursuits are imperfect. This country set out to have a government that was for the people, by the people. By and large this has been a success. But no, sadly it is not perfect. However there are few governments that come close to mirroring our Constitution. It is because of this that I say America is still the best country in the world. Even though it isn't a perfect style of government, its goal has always been to serve the people. It is almost an obligation of the heart to stand up and say that this forum is not right.

As to "awkward questions", I'm sure that certain historical personages would have stood up to that question. As it is, could you blame them? They believed in their system of government with all of their heart and soul. I cannot imagine how devastating it would have been to find that it failed. And yet, I think that they still had the right and indeed obligation to defend that system of beliefs that they held so obviously dear. I would imagine that they too would agree that Socialism is flawed, but they probably would have still had high hopes for the system, otherwise there would have been no point in believing in the system. I for one cannot deny them the right to stand up and say that "this is wrong" and would have expected them too, else it would be obvious how little they valued their own beleifs. Are they wrong to do this? Wether you agree with it or not, is it wrong to make a stand against something or someone that is tossing your beliefs? Is it wrong to insist that arrogance can be confused with pride? Is it even wrong to be proud?

Perhaps that pride is a dangerous thing. I imagine that the Germans were proud in 1940's. But the USA is hardly Nazi Germany.

There is an Aaron Tippin song that comes to mind. (it occurs to me that I have no idea how widespread country music is in other nations, or even if you yourself are not an American, but at the cost of being insulting....) The chorus goes like this...."You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything."

Yeah, I've got to stand up for the country I love. Too much blood has been shed to preserve it.

How dare you insinuate that I'm a foolish man for standing up for USA!

But you know what saddens me more than anything else?


I'm standing for America on my own, and I know that there are other American researchers among this group.

I love my country too, but at the same time, I can't take an absolute "my country right or wrong" stand for it. I do think there are many great things about America, but I also will concede that we have also made our mistakes along the way and are hopefully learning from them. There are some things our nation has done I can never condone, but I also think we have accomplished great things for ourselves as well. I think what's nice about the country is that I can love it and want to improve it at the same time and openly talk about its problems without fear of arrest or harrassment. I am a bit put out by the hopefully accidental comparison of America to Nazi Germany, where the only allowed patriotism was extreme, and questioning the leaders led to prison or death.

I do also agree that "What's wrong with Americans?" does have much more negative connotations than say "What's right or wrong with Americans?", "What's wrong with American foreign policy?" or "Is Anybody to Blame for cultural imperialism?" or such. By saying what's wrong with group X, one is basically emphasizing a need for categorizing groups as a whole to analyze specific problems (eg, "American TV is everywhere, because Americans are pushy and arrogant" vs. "American TV is everywhere, because American studios are able to exploit economies of scale to produce programs that are cheaper than local television.")

I to am an American, but I also can't take a stand of "my country right or wrong". First of all right and wrong are like good and evil. Interwoven, inseperable. Without one there could not be the other. Every country, person, and everything else is right and wrong, good and evil. As I said, they are inseperable.
But it also is true that America has comparatively no history. Other countrys begain with nomads, and great rivers. America's natives were killed with hate and fear. And any country thrown together quickly on ashes is going to have less of a past than those that grew over hundreds of years. No matter how the ashes are built up. That must have an effect. There is a quote: "He who can not draw on three thousand years is living from hand to mouth." Prehaps this is true? Prehaps Americans are more narrow minded than those who have slowly developed a culture and past?
I still say, however, that good and evil are one and the same.
"There are no good guys, there are no bad guys, just a bunch of guys."

Now, are we discussing americans the people group or america the system of government?

americans the people group have their pro's and con's. when you can find someone who doesnt, i guess we can then objectively judge all other people groups by that standard. Untill then, you have to take it person to person, just like any people group. its nearly impossible to debate the merits and drawbacks of a society untill you are looking at that society with hindsight. too many varibles? who knows, a thousand years from today, greater society may be extolling the noble virtues of NASCAR, who can tell?

america the system? truly i believe in it. it may take the elastic clause a bit to far, but i can live with that. the foundation of the government is solid, no matter what sort of political lunacy is going on upstairs, 225 years later. The system faces problems today, and it always has; it was designed to face problems. In hindsight, the system has made mistakes when trying to solve the problems of the nation; but it has produced solutions, be they bad or good. i, for one, have found the agony of indecision to be worse than the frustration of a bad decision. A bad decision can be rectified, indecision cannot. I think human governments will make mistakes as long as humans do.

On the whole, anyone, thing, or entity claiming perfection is dangerous. Recognizing one's imperfection is a prerequisite for getting along with others, I would think. Of course, personally, I need to work on that one!

Seems the only form of government that has no conflicts is a dictatorship?

there ya go Perium

Mr Cogito,

If you won't take a stand for your country, what do you stand for?

Why wouldn't you stand for the country right or wrong? This is country is great because of the very fact that the government is dynamic, and suceptable to change. And yet you won't stand for it. That truly baffles me.


As far as the reference to Nazi Germany, try not to be offended by the reference. Instead think of what I was trying to say. I was stating that extreme pride can be dangerous. Nothing more, nothing less.

Although I will say that you have made some good points in your last paragraph. I couldn't have said it better myself

thnx

Yikes that dicatorship comment is bound to achieve a little excitement.... if my reference to Nazi Germany is any indication.

I suppose that I have been attacking this issue from whichever side suits me best at the moment, be it government or people. I wasn't really aware that I was doing that until you mentioned it. LOL.

However, I would say that the two are inextricably intertwined, part of what makes us who we are is the system of government we started. It certainly has changed with our own change over the last 200+ years. I mean, they used to ban the comsumption of alcohol.

You know one of the first things they taught us in the Army was that there are few things that are worse than indecision. Indecision in that profession needlessly wastes lives. The worse choice of all, they said, was to not choose at all. I agree that sometimes it feels like the government is beating a dead horse. Especially when the information to use is there and a decision could be (logically) made. But you gotta admire them for their relentless puruit of (seemingly sometimes I know) justice.

The perfection claim I agree is dangerous. I don't remember ever saying that America is perfect. I think my views have been quite clear in that. It is just the literalist point of view that has tried to put me in that category.

As to recognizing one's imperfection, well I'm quite obviously bad at that too. I'll not say I don't have faults, I just don't really care to much about them. I change the ones that bother me and the others I file under the eccentricity category. Their my faults and I like them thank you very much

Oh crap...arrogance again....LOL.

I'm all for standing for my country if you mean liking it despite its faults because I feel we can improve on it. I'm not for standing for a country if it means pretending it has no faults and any mistaken actions committed by it were correct and necessary or beyond any examination because it's your country. I think we're probably of a similar mindset here, but expressing things in somewhat similar but confusingly different terms.

I absolutely hate it when people say "America. Love or leave it!" since the open expression of dissent and the push for reform are one of the greatest things about this country. And that is what I mean by the phrase "My country right or wrong", since it usually is invoked in the latter sense of a stand without examination, the notion that no matter what your country does, it is always correct because it is your country. Or as GK Chesterton put it, "'My country, right or wrong,' is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, 'My mother, drunk or sober.'"

I will stand for the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the other principles that make this country great. I won't stand for the Trail of Tears, slavery, Hiroshima, or the death squads of Central America, areas where I feel these principles were ignored or weakened for expediency. I love it when we live up to our own ideals as a nation, but I abhor it when I feel we don't. This is also an area of confusion I suppose, are you standing for the governmental structure of America or the actual policy of America?

I'm also a bit more indifferent about indecision and hesitation in policy. There are many cases where a lack of indecision or a speedy process may cost lives. For instance, Nazi Germany was very decisive and efficient in dealing with members of society it did not like. Our Constitution is designed to purposefully slow down the progress of legislation to ensure compromise and prevent such a tyranny of the majority.

excellent points!

yes, supporting the system while disagreeing with many of the decisions made. especially with the aid of hindsight.

as far as indecision is concerned. the checks and balances structure of our government (theoretically) ensures that there is a certain measure of "indecision" in the process. I'm not so sure that actually counts as indecision though? I mean, if its designed that way (and i think we can agree it is) then isnt that just part of the decision process? When I was speaking (or rather, typing) of indecision, i was referring to a confused, clouded state of mind; not of deliberate delay in weighing the issue.

yeah, we're on pretty much the same wavelength Mr. C.

I love the freedom we have in this country, but I think there comes a time when a person should leave. America is a unique nation.

We deal with our problems in a pretty unique way. No other first world nation executes people. Very few nations who are at war are as heavily armed as we are at peace. We are a rich nation because we embrace capitalism to an extent that is virtually unequalled. We have a criminal justice system that is, well hard to describe, but again it's different than anything else you'll find.

When I hear people bemaon the fact that we're the only western nation that does this, that, or the other thing, I feel like if that person wants to try living in a nation with no private fireamrs ownership, socialized medicine, no death penalty, etc, then there are plenty of nations like that. Why can't they go live there, and leave us to live as we see fit.

I'm not saying that there aren't things that could change for the better. There are. Are there a few good ideas we could nip from across the pond? Yes. I just don't need see the need for us to act the same as the rest of the western world.

TBTPM, I happen to feel quite differently than you on several of those issues, and I don't really see what dissenters should leave. You seem to imply that people who are against the death penalty (to pick an example) are motivated merely by their own selfish dislike (or perhaps fear) of the death penalty. Instead, it's usually the opposite case, they're speaking out for those people who can't leave or can't really fight effectively for themselves. Should the abolitionists have run off to Europe and turned their back on slavery? Should Martin Luther King, Jr. have moved to Afica and left everybody else in the South to fend for themselves? I personally am against the death penalty, but not because I am afraid of having it enacted against me (I'm not going to go into much more, because this isn't a "What's wrong with the death penalty?" thread. ) Why would I leave, when there are so many other great things about this country and I can work to help bring about real change?

The most vocal critics love this nation and its greatness, which is why they would never flippantly abandon it as a lost cause. They may believe in different things than you, but they are not just usually looking out just for themselves.

I think that that is kind of a funny statement,"My mother, drunk or sober." She is still your mother, drunk, sober, hanging upside down, whatever. It's still your country right or wrong regardless of its misbehavior.

Accept the fact that your country is imperfect, but still in the pursuit of said perfection. That being said, why wouldn't you stand up for America? Its the ability to change that makes us great. Just because we've had some screw ups (albeit some have been atrocious) is no reason not to stand up for America. Correctness has little to do with being a patriot in this sense. So I'm making the stand that our country is still the greatest nation in the world, and despise me all you want for saying that, I don't think there is anything wrong with us or our nation. Certainly nothing that can't be changed or isn't already being changed. Our nation is as dynamic as its population base and I would think has done a pretty good job of accomodating its peoples needs.

Policy is another thing entirely. I've unwittingly stepped in the goo there as I was trying not to get into it, but wound up doing so anyway. Policy changes with almost every president. And no, Bush hasn't done very much to impress me as of late, but it is early yet. And right wrong or indifferent, I'll stand behind the guy unless/until he does something to make me change my mind. I'll say that the very first time I've ever despised the president was with the last one and his very public affair. I think he should have stepped down for his indiscretion. In all honesty I was embarrased at his lack of self control. Not a healthy trait for a president. I think that typically we have been isolationists, and that isn't a policy that I agree with. Head in the sand policy I call it. Not that I think that we should be butting our heads into everyone's business, but I believe we should have a more active role on the world playing field.

And sometimes I agree with Two Bit. You don't like our country, you're more than welcome to leave. You don't like the fact that I own guns, leave. There are some things that do not need reforming. P**ses me off to here about those lobbiest who point to other nations as perfect examples of harmony and we should do our best to emulate them. NO NO NO. It is a mark of a failing point in our governmental system when a minority can define the rules for the majority.

Policy gets me a little worked up sometimes, but it is still my country. ( in order not to repeat myself re-read para 1 )

Perium, I think we're in agreement, and expressing the same thing in different ways. I do stand up for America and its principles, and I do feel it's a great nation, and I don't think I've said anything here that contrasts that. At the same time, I also reserve the right to disagree and gripe about anything the American government does that I don't like. My only beef is with people who don't believe I should be allowed to gripe or that I should not be allowed to gripe in the name of others, but I don't think that's a problem with the people here on this forum.

What's great about this country is that it does also respect the rights of a minority and this is what distinguishes it from a direct democracy or mob rule. If such protections were not there, we would not have had the civil rights progress of the 60s or perhaps a state-mandated religion or other such nonsense. Even the rights we allow to those accused of crimes are great, since they provide for someone unfairly accused to defend themselves against the demand for bloody justice by a mob.

In any event, I think we've all served to show the different opinions and common feelings to be found across America. I hope it's been as interesting for our overseas viewers (who are perhaps thinking at this point the thread should be changed to "What's Wrong with Mr. Cogito" ). Thanks to all for contributing and have a great Labor Day weekend.

Oh?

I thought sure it was "What's wrong with Perium?"


LOL

Uh oh, he's on to us...

Good thing this ended in laughter.

I myself was getting a little hot about some of the replies.

Guess that's one thing about us, don't take anything serious.

(laughter, shakes head, walks out to the 'stang to visit the bar.....)

And there's nothing more important (especially in a goofy online site) that having a beer and relaxing on the weekend. Have fun everybody.

Could you explain Labo(u)r Day?

Labo(u)r Day was started by the Knights of Labor, a New York-based workers' rights group. They held a parade on each first Monday in September, which the rest of the United States (and Canada) declared as "Labor Day" in 1894.

Labor Day is simply a day of rest, for no other reason than we felt we should probably take one. Other nations will have ciesta, or tea, or some other form of slowing things down and taking stock in what's really important, without the nagging of our workplaces to contend with. Labor Day is also a day used to honor workers, whose jobs are often thankless, aside from the obligatory paycheck.

Since we use an active, population-based system of power allotment (such as voting and representatives), the VOCAL majority will always be in control, there will never be any question of that. The non-vocal part of the nation (whether or not they are the majority) does not count in our system, nor has it ever. Those who do not vote, therefore, have no reason to complain. This is why the minority gets a voice, because activitism will overpower apathy any day, no matter what the numbers say.

And the notion of us emulating the aspects of other countries is not some ridiculous notion that only lobbyists tout. It's what the United States has been doing since its birth as an independent nation. Everything, from our system of government, to our games, to our meals, has a foundation elsewhere.
If we decided to start ignoring the practices of other nations, we would stop evolving as a nation. And since everyone is in agreement that the USA is *not* perfect, this is not an option we can afford to use.