h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I've just read all 360 postings in this conversation in one sitting. Can I have a medal? Milk chocolate for preferance

Why in the name of god did you do that?

Here's your medal:

\ . /


The crossed smiley with cluster.

As an observer, I would like to compliment you all on your eloquent arguing, although I can't quite sympathise with Two Bit's opinions.
I, for one, am glad that I live in a country which will provide me with medical treatment and schooling for my kids even if I, for some reason, am not able to (serious accident, death of spouse, or one of those awful F111?thread=As an observer, I would like to compliment you all on your eloquent arguing, although I can't quite sympathise with Two Bit's opinions.
I, for one, am glad that I live in a country which will provide me with medical treatment and schooling for my kids even if I, for some reason, am not able to (serious accident, death of spouse, or one of those awful F111's or whatever those Americans fly over our heads here, with the sole aim of deafening us and frightening our children, crashing down on my roof). As I understand it, I would have to continue trying to earn a full salary under whatever conditions, because if I can't afford it, I don't get medical treatment, schooling, good roads, police protection, whatever. When the Berlin wall fell, and the Allied forces no longer felt obliged to "defend" central Europe, the Americans just buggered off and left all the loval Civilian employees on their bases without a job and without compensation. And some of them had been working there for 25 years and were too old to be re-employed. Sorry - a little rant from a European. I am not entirely "au fait" with the United States Constitution, but I thought it contained words to the effect that "all men are equal". What's that if it's not a socialist statement? O Gosh. Sorry. Didn't want to get polemic. But those aeroplanes really do get my goat.

Why is the example of 'Freebird' preposterous? The whole point of the film was that these 'deranged, murdering prisoners' were almost intelligent enough to nearly escape. They were only stopped by the intelligence of one of them who only stayed on the plane because his friend was dying. However, the almost all American hero won out, regardless of how much satire was involved. However, we gave you Ab fab and Blackadder and Red Dwarf and even Shakespeare. You gave us the Simpsons, which makes up for all of the above. If you don't appreciate that, then I may as well tell you that Britain recently voted the Simpsons the best ever children's programme. This just goes to show that even us Brits can make mistakes. The Simpsons, a children's show? When did that happen?

>>But, I don't remember going around to ANY of the other governments in the world and attempting anything of the sort!<<

My point was being made about America - as i say individuals have nothing to be ashamed of - there's nothing wrong with Americans - it's America, as a nation, a state, that people have a problem with.


>>I think in the long run, we all do better when we don't subsidize failure. I don't like welfare not because I'm mean, it's because I think it prevents people from being a success.<<

What prevents people from being a success is the success of others - wealth is relative, obviously, so if we are to have rich individuals or corporations (particularly if we are to have the super-rich) then we will have poverty, and 'failure's. Surely when our success creates poverty for others it is us that have failed in our duty as human beings to care for our fellow men.


>>Stalin didn't betray the revolution. Stalin was a natural part of communism. You can't concentrate power without any checks and expect anything else to happen.<<

It was Trotsky who described Stalin as the Betrayer of the Revolution, Stalin was the natural product of power-centricity (if there is such a word!), opportunism and basic pig headedness. Lenin's final writings were dedicated to warning of the dangers of allowing the bureaucracy to take a hold and stifle the peoples voice in the soviets, and of allowing the central committee to be dominated by a single personality (Lenin himself, while alive, was fanatical about not signing or ratifying anything without consulting, agreeing and counter signings by other members of the committee. Even important decisions such as the Brest Litost peace treaty talks in WW1 were held up day after day waiting to get agreement from other members, and was also happy to be disagreed with or out voted by his colleagues.), and his last words were warning of the dangers of Stalin's careerism and unsound methodology. It's important to remember that Stalin was neither a real player in the revolution, nor any kind of political theorist, while Lenin and Trotsky were it's engineers, philosophers and driving forces. The concentration of power was a strategy to keep Stalin in absolute power and to stifle dissenting voices, it runs completely against the grain of communism, whose aim is to devolve authority and power to the masses - "All power to the Soviets" as the slogan went, and a soviet is a workers council - government of the people, by the people, for the people. That has a good ring to it too.


>>Nor do I see anything like a socialist government in this country for the first 110 years after the writing of the Constitution.<<

That's why I feel you've betrayed the foundations of your nation. I will post a full explanation of the socialist elements of the American constitution when i have time to do the subject justice. Maybe once i've had my tea.


>>Personally, I don't care all that much about the rest of the world.<<

Yes, that's why the rest of the world hates America. Well put.


>>As long as we can trade with you, and you don't try to mess with us, your business is your business.<<

Unfortunately your business is also our business isn't is, as your economic system is unviable without us, and you will prop it up with gunboat diplomacy and economic terrorism at every turn.

7rob7, I hope I have tour name right... I am so relieved to hear from an American like you! I admire your detachment from posessions, and want to achieve that kind of detachment in my life.. I have occasionally - and one can end up as a refugee or losing it all - I live in a city with seven volcanoes - sadly,it isn't Rome.. Wish there were more Americans like you!

Absolutely. I studied Brecht in German culture 201 in 1983. Right on.

Perium, are you seriously saying that the USA is an Utopia, or the closest thing on earth to it? If so, why and how can you seriously say such a thing!?

I read the whole thread because I wanted to understand the conversions (I'm also trying to avoid tidying up

What I understood from the original post was that an American had come across a certain amount of anti-USA feeling and wanted to understand why people felt this way. If you read the whole thing the misunderstandings unnessary fallings out are quite amusing in a warped kind of way.

Personally I don't think the problem is that US citizens are more proud/arrogent/fat/ignorant than other peoples, but that that is the way their actions are perceived from a distance. Things are always more complicated when you get closer.

In Europe it's easy to forget that some parts of the world have bigger countries so it's much harder to get to foreign parts than it is here (Is that a sentence?)

sorry about the typos it's late, I need sleep nuff said.

Spot on PPE for reading the whole thing. I have not done so (because I do not have the time)This whole thing is starting to sound 'jingoistic' ( for the origins of that word, I may well have to apologise)Does it really matter what nationality we are if we can accept everyone else? The religion is all the same when you get down to it, there either is God or there isn't. Why then are we arguing about the subtleties of language?

Nietzsche once said "That which you possess, possesses you"

Trill, I can sympathise with you on the F111?thread="smiley - smiley" title="smiley" class="smiley" src="http://www.h2g2.com/h2g2/skins/Alabaster/images/Smilies/f_smiley.gif"/>

No challenge here. It would seem that after basically being kicked out of Asia(Phillipines & Okinawa"soon") and pulling out of Europe. The good old US of A has decided that Northern Australia will be a wonderfull place to station a portion of it's displaced (misplaced) forces to protect it's interests in the Asian region. Do we need this, I don't think so.
Well there goes the neighbourhood.
Rocket
getting ready for and getting out my 70's "NO US BASES" placards

"I won't say that we haven't had our failings, show me the one true utopia and I'll show you an island of Lotus Eaters."

You've taken my words out of context. If a cursory glance at my writing is all that you are going to do, then don't bother replying.

Show me the ONE TRUE UTOPIA, meaning I have no knowledge of one, surely not even my country, and I'll show you an island of Lotus Eaters. You may remember them from school?

Seriously, can your hatred of my nation just long enough to read the words, think on what I'm saying, and then reply. Please, it's only fair seeing as how I've read your comments thoroughly and even quoted them directly in some cases.

Trillian,

I actually find it kind of strange that the government just picked up stakes and left the country without providing some kind of benefits to the employees who worked at the base. Again, another imperfection in my country. However, I'm wondering if it had something to do with the fact that they were really German nationals. Perhaps there is a law somewhere(I am not a lawyer) that does not allow that.

Even if there were a law like that, I still don't think that that is right.

As far as the wellfare thing is concerned, I don't know enough about it to say anything except this. In this country the wellfare program is trashed mainly because those of us who lead productive lives invariably come across someone who is not productive, lives on wellfar, and is enjoying relatively the same lifestyle as I am. Now, I'm NOT saying that wellfare is a bad idea. But I do think that a wellfare system that is there however long you need it(read indefinitely) is a bad idea. I see many, and I mean MANY, individuals, and even families who use the wellfare system as a crutch. They figure, "hey, I don't have to work hard at my job, struggle to provide for my family. I can just quit, get on wellfare and do whatever I want." And all to often I see that individuals who do this STILL do not use the money to provide for themselves in any meaningful way, nor do they provide for their dependants. On top of all of that, I as a taxpayer wind up paying for ever child that they have(which, children equals money to those people).

I can only speak for myself, but I think that this is a common sentiment among Americans. That is where the animosity to the welfare program comes from.

7rob7

"What prevents people from being a success is the success of others - wealth is relative, obviously, so if we are to have rich individuals or corporations (particularly if we are to have the super-rich) then we will have poverty, and 'failure's. Surely when our success creates poverty for others it is us that have failed in our duty as human beings to care for our fellow men."

Your statement that success creates poverty for others is not true. My relative state of "rich" in no way shape or form caused the streetperson to experience a relative state of "poor." They ARE different standards of living, but nothing I've done in my life caused the poor guy to become poor. He/she made there own choices with what they were given in life and so was I. They may not have been even, but nobody starts out at the same place as someone else in life. That's like me crying to the super rich because I wasn't born in a mansion and raised like their kids. The beauty of this country is the fact that it is "possible" not even likely but still possible to attain that kind of super rich wealth. It's what we all strive for. But to say that other peoples success creates poverty is a lie.

The difference between a workers council and say, the House or the Senate is that they are elected officials. While the workers council may claim to represent the people, it is quite obvious that they didn't.

Again I challenge you to defend your statements. How is America socialist. Don't be gray about it, come out and say it. Take a break from tea and write what you are so smuggly hinting at and give us a chance to think on it. As it is, you've said nothing to sway me really.

PPE,

I admire your fortitude. I for one did not read the entire thing. This conversation like most conversations has change a bit since the begining of the question/answer. That's usually the case anyway so I just jumped to the end to see where the conversation was going. Perhaps it would have saved me a little outrage, but I don't think so. I probably would have wound up saying the same thing anyway. Patriotic Americans in a predominately European/Australian forum seem to be like blood in the water.

I was thinking on that last statment of yours a little bit and you know we can't reall go from one country to another with any kind of real ease. America is kind of wierd place in the sense that there are so many different types of people here, for all over the world. Added to the fact that some of the states in America are fierce about calling themselves Tenneseean for instance. I'm from Tennessee for instance, and when people ask I say I'm from Tennessee. Strange, I'm a southerner first, and American next, and then I live in an altogether different state called Arizona. I wonder (aloud) if Europeans do that? I wouldn't think that we really that different from us, but I never thought of the question until you said something.....interesting.

Etherzev,

On the F-111's. I cannot help you about the planes flying overhead. It may surprise you to know that I too have planes over my head. I live near an Air Force Base. Everytime I hear those planes it feels good to my heart, because the sounds of those planes are the sound of freedom. Freedom sounds very strong and very proud.

However, it is your government that allowed the base to be on your soveriegn soil. If it bothers you so much, complain to your government, don't expect me to have any sympathy for you or the actions of your own government.

"the mark of a civilisation is judged by how well it treats with the least of its people."

Australia is not my people, we are Americans, judge us not by that standard then. In stead hold us to the same rule that we all hold each other. Fairness and justice.

Trillian's Child:

In a way, can sympathise with people employed as a result of our military for losing their jobs, but the military is here to defend our interests. It's not a jobs program.

On the other hand, it has been my experience that people are never all fond of the military while they're staioned nearby, but they sure miss them when they're gone. My wife was staioned at a base that was scaling back, and the local civilains were being laid off. Everyone was complaining about them leaving, but they'd been comlaining for years about the base being there. The fact of the matter was that the Army didn't have a need tos tore special weapons there any more, so the base wasn't serving a purpose.

You don't like having F-111's fly over. How would you feel if we pulled out altogehter?

I'm not sure that y'all need defnding any more. We've defeated the red horde through economic means. Personally, I'd love to have an exotic place for our soldiers to be stationed overseas, but I don't see the need for all the extra expense. Y'all don't need all the noise and harrassment of living with them. You're forming a European Army to take care of your own affairs (which I support). We only have ten divisions left in the active Army, and we can't have two of them tied up in Europe.

I don't see how the quote form the Declaration of Independence "that all men are created equal" is a socialist statement. I think it's more of a political statement than an econmic one. The assumption here is that men are created equal; how far they get is their business. Whereas socialism doens't care about being created equal, as long as they get an eaul share at the end.

Flinch:
We're not in zero sum economy. If one person is rich, it doesn't prevent others from being rich also. We have extremely rich people in the Uniteed States, that doesn't prevent us from having a very well to do middle class. Even poor in this nation are doing pretty well. The better we do as a nation, the better we all do.

>>>Personally, I don't care all that much about the rest of the world.<<

Yes, that's why the rest of the world hates America. Well put.<

Are you saying that you want us to really get in the middle of the rest of the world's business? We can do that. If you really want us to start dictating terms, we are the most powerful nation on Earth, and we can enforce those terms. The thing about poiwer, is that if you give it to someone they'll use it.

I'd rather let you run your own affairs.

EtherZev:

Beads? Why beads? We're not the benefactor of the world.

RocketRod:

The last thing we need are more places people are going to whine about losing jobs when our forces leave. I doubt that we'll be forced out of Okinanwa.

Perium:

Again, I don't think the military is an international jobs program. If locals can use us to make money while we're there, great. Once we leave, they're on their own.

I don't think our welfare recipients have it all that good. Not unless they're defrauding the system.