h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

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That was because he had accepted what was going to happen. It's not that he chose it, but he accepted...
<<>>It would be good if some proper Christian were to come here and explain why it is exactly that Christians worship this vile instrument of torture. And I say it has nothing to do with the resurrection idea. It seems to me they worship the actual horror and pain of death, rather than the idea of the resurrection.>>

Absolutely we don't worship the cross, or the idea of death! Even now, the Catholic church is officially opposed to war and to capital punishment and I wish more protestants were! It really is all about the Resurrection, something that most Christians (Anglican clergy aside it seems! ) have no trouble believing in!
Vicky

*Absolutely we don't worship the cross*

Absolutely, but what about *graven images*?

*You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.*

Idol:
*An image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.*

So.... what are crosses (especially occupied ones) doing in church?

I realise they might be considered a *reminder*, but doesn't the commandment preclude them??

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You've answered your own question. Crosses in churches are not idols and they're not worshipped whatever Blatherskite has to say in his Guide Entry.

I wonder why non-believers presume to understand what believers believe? Best to get the first-hand opinions, surely?

Ed I'm slightly confused what you mean about 'believers'

There is no doubt that any church has crosses on display prominently. And Christians wear them round their necks, even Vicky . And no, I didn't mean technically, 'worshipping' the cross. But they *do* in everything but the technical meaning. I don't really give a damn about their pathetic excuses about the cross symbolising the 'resurrection'. It doesn't. The cross is always about the unbvelievable suffering. That's what Christians are always really *hung up on*. And that's probably why the BBC programme irritated me, by the way jesus went stupidly passively to his death. Like he couldn't wait to have those nails rammed through his flesh. Christ is supposedly meant to human as well as god. No human would behave like that. I reckon that 'kenosis' thing just didn't work properly. Satan as described in 'Paradise Lost', is a million times more 'human' than stupid passive, Christus.

The resurrection supposedly happened within a cave/tomb. Why don't they wear reprentations of a cave round their necks? It would be cr@p symbolism, that's why, compared to the overt power of the cross as symbol.



'"get that gibbet out of my sight" Voltaire. I love it. Thanks for that Vicky, you've really cheered up my Easter Sunday, with that quote.

He also said,

'"Christanity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd, and bloody religion that has ever infected the world." Voltaire ended every letter to friends with "Ecrasez l'infame" (crush the infamy--the Christian religion).'

From:-

http://ffrf.org/day/?day=21&month=11

'Satan as described in 'Paradise Lost', is a million times more 'human' than stupid passive, Christus.'


that's an example of Milton's masterful artistry, isn't it? Satan needs to be more appealing to us fallen, sin-ridden humans than does Christ. Otherwise, Christ, rather than Satan, would tempt us. Isn't it meant to be easy to sin but difficult to be Christ-like?

-I wonder why non-believers presume to understand what believers believe? Best to get the first-hand opinions, surely?-

I think that it's because most of us used to be believers and we can still remember what we felt before we put aside childish things. I remember hearing the bible story before I got the scientific version. It was very pleasant being the centre of the universe. Very pleasant while it lasted.

The reason for my wondering is because it always risks the comeback 'That's not what it's about at all!' Doesn't it?

I saw the final part of the 'Passion' tonight. IE the bit where Jesus comes back to life. I was extremely irritated with myself, because I felt quite moved. It's the bloody media manipulating my emotions.

I always like these biblical things on telly. I like the epic film Barabus. I think I'm an emotional Christian actually because I like the stories and the symbolism. And I've always liked hymns.




But I will NEVER be a believer. Got that Vicky.

Religious stuff moves me, too. I call it nausea.

My big brother's nickname was Barabbas at school.

Does that include all the great Rennaisance paintings featuring religious iconography then, inspired by belief?

All the great music inspired by religion, eg Bach, Mozart and Handel?

All the beauty of the language of the bible?

The symbolism of the stories?

Yes. We most clearly differ. And I'm pleased I'm in the same camp as Hitchens. He's said that he believes we wouldn't have such great art from the past without inspiration of religious belief. Yes I am unreconstructed emotional Christian I've decided.

I forget which one of the four horseman likely said it - but this always struck a chord with me - we can appreciate and enjoy the works of art inspired by the religious even as we understand the context of their delusion.

The atheistic life is not necessarily more ascetic just more intellectually honest.

Oh, for Bob's sake!

I said religious stuff, not stuff that purports to have been religiously inspired, created by religious individuals, or funded by religious organizations.

I despise religion, and have contempt for those who promote it.
The supreme idiocy, evil and stupidity of religion disgusts me.

Of course I admire great art, music, and literature.
I just happen to think their value is despite, not because of, religion.
For example, Michaelangelo's works are exceptional, and no small part of this greatness is because their masterful artistry simply transcends the ludicrous subject matter.

Despite being religiously 'inspired', sentimentalistic religious 'art', 'music', 'literature' and shoddy, hateful movies, have absolutely no redeeming qualities to raise them above the level of mere propaganda.

>>I just happen to think their value is despite, not because of, religion. <<

I think that's what I just said.

Yes, you did.

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I did once have a fish symbol I used to wear. I wear the cross at least as much because my sister gave it me ..

Vicky

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How old were you when you changed your views, may I ask? Was it because you came from a creationist background and moved straight to learning science without ever realising that there are Christians (perhaps most Christians) who don't have any problem with evolution etc?

Being the centre of the Universe? This is why I ask how old you were. Because that's not how most Christians see themselves at all, but it *is* how most under five year olds see it!

<< But I will NEVER be a believer. Got that Vicky.>>

Fair enough, it's always up to you!

Vicky

>I wear the cross at least as much because my sister gave it me ..<

Oh the reasons Christians find for wearing instruments of torture round their necks.

I think all christians should be forced to watch a real as possible re-enactment of a crucifixion in all its horror, screams as each nail is hammered in, in close-up. Lots and lots of blood. More screams as the body attached to the cross is set up right. Hours and hours of screams of pain and torment. All the while they have to keep their gaze fixed upon the horrifying spectacle of a human being dying very very slowly, attached to a great big cross. With modern CGI techniques it should be possible to re-create something incredibly lurid and realistic.

After how many hours it takes for the person to die on the cross, the christians filing out of the theatre should be given complimentary crosses and chains to put round their necks.

It might be really cool to also give them complimentary crosses with some small speakers attached, which periodically groan and scream. They could have little night lights attached, designed to be put on bedside table. So at night they could lull themselves to sleep with the sound of jesus screaming in agony.

They'll really get off on it. I mean we know how prudish they are about the flesh in terms of love and sex. But flailed flesh and screaming agony, they'll probably go a bundle on. The more pain, suffering and misery the better.