h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Justin,

How do I know to seek out Jesus Christ, as opposed to seeking Allah, or seeking Nirvana (the state of being, not the band), since I can only truly believe when I have found Christ/Allah etc.? Since you claim that intellectual knowledge of religions is insufficient, and that I cannot have spiritual knowledge until I find Christ/Allah etc., I have no way of knowing which belief system I should attempt to follow.

Hi everyone.

Its really tempting to try and get Justin to see where he is wrong. Maybe the more we flog this dead horse the more aggressive and attacking, as Saturnine chooses to see it, we may appear. This I honestly regret. I fully admit to have no respect for Justin, not because of what he has done in his life, but because he has done those things and now tries to wilt the spirits of everyone else he accuses of lacking piety with his Bible inspired flames.

I could call someone an idiotic pathetic little rebel, willfuly ignorant of the complete lack of facts supporting the exsitence of any sub, super or un - natural beings. That would be an honest opinion, but I would rightly get cited for flaming. Even though thats my honest opinion. Yet when Justin compares feminists to paedophiles, calls homosexuals abominations and unnatural or declares that peoples children are likely to go down the path of drug peddling and prostitution for instance he tries to pass it off as the words of the bigG.

They are not the words of the bigG, there simply isnt one. Im sorry for him (and more so for anyone who is taken in by his claptrap) that hes so gulible or stupid that he cant see that. They *are* somtimes words from one of the translations of the bible and he chooses to put the spin on them that he does. Then he chooses to post them here as if they are fact.

That you and he share the same view of what christians should be shows that it is you and he who are infact the ones who hold prescriptive opinions about what is right and wrong. Most of the people on this thread think Justin should be allowed to post what he likes, even if we dont like whats in his posts and think that he shouldnt be yiksed as often as he is. So who is the real hypocrite Saturnine, when you come here chiding others who simply believe that Justin should not be so incessantly offensive in his posts.

(Inspite of his completely transparent attempts to be a bit nicer)

I choose to label him as a liar. Someone who does not tell the truth based on what I know. He calls me a liar and a sinner based on what he tells us he knows.

Its a bit pathetic and pointless but we all have to get our kicks somehow.

one love

Potholer,

you raise a very interesting point.

However, that does risk being a bit like the claim of some so-called 'modern artists' that because they have (by some as yet unknown process seemingly unrelated to education or talent) become an *artist*, everything they do is henceforth imbued with the spirit of art, and their act of throwing a pile of junk on the floor is somehow more artistic than it would be if I did precisely the same thing.

In the sense that *their* bowel movements are a work of art, maybe mine are a work of sin?

Loosely speaking religion tries to give meaning to our exsistence on the flip side art gives expression to our condition.

So in some cases rubbish and a big pile of pooh could be very artistic. Hi Justin.

What is important with both art and religion is cultural reference and individual perspective. I have seen many Muslims in my community work and some of the most ardent practitioners who lambast others with the word of Allah and threats of divine retribution are those who *fell off* at some point. Wheras the more gentle and kind spirited tend to have led generally pious lives.

One mans meat is anothers poison. So too with art and religion Iknow lots of people who might not *get* Steinbeck or Dizee Rascal but can feel the meaning in Bach or swan lake. Does it mean that popular novel and pop music are not art? A Jew tucking into a passover meal might not grasp the importance of vegetarianism within the buddhist religion or its lack of a deity. Does it mean that only one of these paths can be right?

Many people do take the time to reate art and some may be spotaneous they can both be art. Some may feel inspired and others may take years to study and define their path. In all cases it is unlikely in my opinion that anyone will ever grasp the entire and accurate truth.

one love

Sarkie,

Well, you could do so because the Christians are the only ones who plainly have what they speak about. However, if you wish, you can try and seek out 'Allah', 'Nirvana', or other such things, until you have realised that they do not exist, and then seek Christ, in whom is your only chance of getting rid of sin and when God's Judgement against sin falls escaping it falling on you.

You know very well that Christ and the moon god 'Allah' are not the same person. Even the followers of the warlord Muhammed will tell you that, as he taught that 'Allah has no son', and the Jesus was just a religious chap.

I think you know very well. That which God made recognises that which made him.

Please do not be so unbelievably arrogant as to attempt to tell me what I know. You have never met me, and the only interaction you have had with me has involved me repeatedly questioning the existence of God. How does this lead you to the idea that I know god exists?

Your entire argument is that Christianity (with your definition) must be the only true faith because it is the only true faith. Muslims, Jews, Hindus and people of every other religion are equally convinced that theirs is the true faith, and there seems to be no way for anyone to tell which, if any, of these people are correct. Therefore i again have to question a belief system which requires a lucky guess as to which is the true faith in order to avoid eternal punishment in the fires of Hell.

How long do I try seeking out Allah or Nirvana or whatever before concluding that they don't exist? This is like directions telling you to turn left two miles before the traffic lights.

The idea of Allah and God being the same Being was discussed earlier in this thread I believe, and it was decided that Allah (the word) just means God (the word). I just wanted to avoid (more) topic drift, by pointing out that the use of 'Allah@ in my point was an example, and not the crucial point. I don't believe in God or Allah, so from my point of view the question is entirely academic.

I expect the Nirvana does in fact exist as a state of mind, but probably not an altogether desirable.

desirable one.

Sarkie,

I am not arrogant in the least! It may appear that way to you, but it is simply because you are an outsider and do not understand the things that God's people have.

ALL Christians (and I don't include the majority nominals) can tell who is and who is not the Lord's. I understand that you did not know that, but that is the truth, and plainly what the Bible says too. I can tell, as can all other Christians, that you are not born again of the Holy Spirit of God; that you are not saved. From that I know what you can and cannot see and understand. It is nothing whatever to do with arrogance. They charged Jesus with much the same thing too, but He is not in the least arrogant either!

I know that all human beings know that there is a God, even though they do not know Him personally, because God, whom I, and all Christians KNOW, says so.

You seem to think that I have some sort of 'faith', like Catholicism or Islam, or Hinduism. I don't. I have God, like all of His people. I agree that all those religions you mention do say that their faith is the real thing. But they do not have God. If you asked any Muslim they will tell you that no one knows their god, 'Allah', as he is 'unknowable'. That is certainly true, but Jehovah, the God of the Jews and the Christians, is perfectly 'knowable', and, indeed, that is what Christ gave His life on a Cross to buy for you.

There is no lucky guess in this. Try all the others first, as you plainly don't want any shortcut by going straight to the genuine. You can try for, let's say, five years each, and, if God be pleased to allow you to continue on the Earth, you should be able to get through all the major ones before you are very old. Then you can come to God through Christ, and wonder why you were so foolish as to not take the only true God straight away. It is not a lucky guess at all. Make yourself a list, and work through it. You might save yourself a bit of time by going to those who practice those religions and ask them if their religion has brought them into a personal relationship with God, where they can speak to Him, and Him to them. If not you can save yourself the time and effort with that religion. I can guarantee you that NO mere religion, even that ABOUT the Lord Jesus, will ever give you that. Then you can come, at long last, to the shortcut you should have taken in the beginning, and realise that I am not the barefaced liar you thought I was, and that I only sought your good, that you were too proud to accept.

If however this is an academic exercise, and you do not believe in God, then you will not wish to do the above, and you can cease asking me questions about that which you have no interest in, or desire for.

J.

<>

This has been pointed out before, but it seems to be in need of repeating.

*I* do not NOT know that God exists. Full stop. No argument. If I hadn't been exposed to the concept as a child it would never have occurred to me independently.

Noggin

Ditto.



I'm still not clear on this: apparently we're not punished for something beyond our control, but our birth in sin was beyond our control, and our time of death is beyond our control, and whether or not God pleases to author faith in us is beyond our control. So where, in all of this, is any control?

But that's the strange thing. Despite Justin's dismissal of logic as a useful tool, the claim that everybody *knows* God exists is logically necessary to his entire scheme of things.

Noggin

It is not necessary that anyone 'understands', you can go and enjoy your life and not bother to think about it.

CAN WE RETURN TO TOPIC PLEASE?!..............

Anyone got any further comments about the subject of this thread? (See first post)

J.

I've just had a very entertaining hour reading the backlog of this thread and I want to congratulate everyone on some very enlightening comments in the face of dire provocation.

There are elements in all of the major religions that are the same. Normally, it's a request from some higher power or prophet-like individual that we all try to treat each other with respect and avoid things like killing our fellow humans.

Any attempt to reconcile the differences in the various faiths, to take away the justification for people to hate one another based on their opinion about what happens after you die and to kill each other in the name of that opinion has to be a good thing.

Justin: Just so you know, I found Jesus.

Now it's His turn to find me.

Gradient,

Thank you for your response, and amongst all mere religions what you say is quite right.

How do you mean that you 'found Jesus, but now He has to find you'? Either you have Him, and He has found you, or you are not in anything but religion. Sorry, don't understand what you mean.

J.

Az, thank you for pointing out the huge contradiction.

Justin, I do not believe in God, but this doesn't mean that I should show no interest in the subject. It seems as though you only want those who agree with you (not sure who this is) to show an interest, and this can be easily explained by your inability to answer any of the questions asked with anything but 'you don't understand, you are not born of the holy spirit'. If I don't understand, then explain, starting with Member's question. Since you ignored it the first time, here it is again:

"I'm still not clear on this: apparently we're not punished for something beyond our control, but our birth in sin was beyond our control, and our time of death is beyond our control, and whether or not God pleases to author faith in us is beyond our control. So where, in all of this, is any control?"

"How do you mean that you 'found Jesus, but now He has to find you'? Either you have Him, and He has found you, or you are not in anything but religion. Sorry, don't understand what you mean."

Seeing you post "either you have Him" made me want to send a ransom note to the Vatican.

Have you never played "Hide and Seek" Justin?

I notice you have not yet identified the group to which you belong. Would you care to enlighten us?

Sarkie,

I do explain, but the things of God cannot be understood by mere intellect. Quote;

"For the carnal mind receiveth not the things of God, for they are spiritually discerned."

My answers were the best I can do, and it is all very obvious to me, and all Christians. I am more than well aware that few will agree with me.

Member is happy. Let him alone. He does not want explanation, but incontrovertable proof, and like all people, he will have it in time. He's happy, let him enjoy whatever life is left to him here.

Gradient,

I think I have posted as nauseum here the answer to that question. I am not doing it again.

Now, what was your point about finding Christ, but Him not having found you yet? When you meet a friend, and have a nice time, do you then go and tell others that you met him, but he did not meet you? The concept is ridiculous. So, how can you have found Jesus, and He has not found you?

And why on earth would you want to send a ransom note to the Vatican? That is entirely another religion, and nothing whatever to do with Biblically revealed Christianity. Some like it, and that is up to them. But what do you mean? Your point is too oblique from me.

J.

Ooohh! Looks like even believers may get mod-ed.
I still cannot understand why not believing in an entity is so wooysome to those who do.
Surely if we infidels do not gain this Nirvana, then we'll be providing the fuel to keep them all warm in their very empty 'Heaven'.
Meanwhile the majority of us are being tipped down the shafts to our alleged damnation, they'll be floating on clouds, playing their Lyres.
Anyway, there'll be so many of us, we'd quench the fires anyway.