h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I do sometimes wonder if you defend Justin just to be alternative .

Justin

it is possible for a person to live a life in which they commit no sins in the eyes of God, EXCEPT FOR THAT OF NOT BEING A CHRISTIAN

Right, in short, understandable sentences:

1. A true Christian can live a life which is acceptable to God.

2. A person could live a life identical to that of this Christian, in every way except that they do not believe in God.

3. This person's only sin is therefore that they do not believe in God.

4. As you have said, everyone starts out cut off from God.

5. As you have said, 'Until God speak (sic) to you you will never 'see it'' (i.e. feel God's presence and truely believe)

6. Therefore it is entirely dependant on God whether a person believes or not.

7. Therefore a non-believer is punished for actions beyond their control.

8. Therefore *clearly* the being responsible for this whole wonderful system is infinitely compassionate and we should all convert instantly (except of course we can't, see no.5 - a direct quote from Justin).

Please Justin, read all of this, rather than just the parts that suit you, and tell me which part doesn't follow.

THe problem is that if the question as asked *incorporates* a particular view of things that isn't shared by those responding it does become necessary to say something about that particular view in order for the answers to make sense. And perhaps vice versa, although if the explication of the particular view is "you can't understand it anyway" it may not help much.

Noggin

Sarkie,

I understood what you meant, Sarkie, m'old chap.

But Almighty God says that a genuine Christian is the ONLY one who can live acceptably before Him, simply because all others do not belong to His family and CANNOT live free from sin. ALL unsaved people are CONGENITALLY incapable of doing anything but sinning, even if they wanted to cease from sin.

No. You are thinking of sin as something you commit, that is only the outworking of the problem. People sin because they are controlled by a power which runs their lives, called sin. It does not matter if that power outworks in minor sins or gross sins, much. It is not sins that are the problem, whatever it is, but that they are SINNERS controlled by sin. Almighty God says that you must be born again. A whole new nature must be put in you, and the old nature removed.

In one sense it is dependant on God authoring saving faith in someone, but all can realise that they don't know Him, and have never heard Him speak to them, and seek Him out until He does speak to them.

NO! An unbeliever is NOT punished for actions beyond their control. God is dealing, at Judgement, with SIN, the power in them. The only way anyone escapes that judgement falling on them is to get rid of that power which runs and controls their lives. The only way that happens is by new birth when one FINDS the Lord Jesus HIMSELF. (Stuff religion! I hate it!) God's Judgement falls on sin in people. It is nothing to do with what the outworking of that sin is, large or small.

The problem, m'old Sarkie, is that you just don't understand! Almighty God is righteous and beyond reproach. If you don't understand something that is fine, but don't go charging Him whom you have to face on Judgement Day with unrighteousness. Like everyone else, you will see Him face to face, and you will have all the incontrovertable proof you could want.

J.

m'old chap?

If I don't understand something, I will question it. I am not accusing God of unrighteousness, if only because I don't believe God exists. What I am doing is questioning your point of view in what I hope is an adult (if slightly sarcastic, but that's just me) way. Implicit in doing this is questioning God, because of the nature of your point of view.

I accept that I do not know God, but nor do I know Allah (yes, possibly the same as God, before this is pointed out), Vishnu or indeed Thor the Norse god of thunder(?). Until I seek out and find God/Allah etc. I have no way of knowing which, if any, of these exists and so no way of knowing which I should seek out. The god you believe in may well be the one true God, but how do I know this if I have to seek Him out before He is revealed to me?

Incidentally (just for a bit of controversy), if, when I die, I find out that God does indeed exist, what are the chances that he will let me off the fire and brimstone on the grounds that he gave me a rational(ish) mind and I then used it to come to a decision not to believe in Him? Basically, is God reasonable?

P.S. please do not take 'in short, understandable sentences' as an insult, it was at least partly because I normally write in long, convuluted and generally unintelligible sentences. I think you're wrong, but I want to do so respectfully.

Sarkie,

If the Lord God wills you will be drawn to Christ. If not you will meet Him later anyway. Everyone does. Everyone gets absolute proof, all they have to do is 'be'.

You?........Seeking a bit of controversy? Never.......?!

If you die without Christ you are finished. Salvation happens here and now, and cannot happen after you die. The issue is soley 'did you die in sin, or in Christ'. "NOW is the day of salvation." You cannot afford to wait.

Your 'believing in Him' in a natural human way is not good enough. You have to find Him, Himself. His name is Jesus. He rose from the dead, and Christians know that is true because they know Him. So must you.

To be fair you cannot 'see' that I am right, and am telling you the truth, unless God give you grace to 'see it', and the 'penny drops'.

Justin

Funnily enough, I did talk to Jesus a lot. The way that I talk to the Goddess now. These archetypes are available for anyone to access.

hi Justin,

Any comment on posting 83? It might help to explain why your first posting got removed and the thread drift factor is quite high.

az

Justin,

God has to give me grace to see that you are right (and of course to become a true believer and receive eternal salvation, but let's keep to the important points here), but I am not being punished for circumstances beyond my control when I fail to be converted and then go to Hell. Please explain this huge contradiction.



So ... marmite?

Justin,
I suppose one *could* take the stance that an unsaved person is so mired in sin that everything they do is sinful, even if from outside it looks that same as the same actions performed by someone who is saved.

However, that does risk being a bit like the claim of some so-called 'modern artists' that because they have (by some as yet unknown process seemingly unrelated to education or talent) become an *artist*, everything they do is henceforth imbued with the spirit of art, and their act of throwing a pile of junk on the floor is somehow more artistic than it would be if I did precisely the same thing.

In the sense that *their* bowel movements are a work of art, maybe mine are a work of sin?

However, that's only really taking things one level deeper. If God has chosen not to save a particular person yet, it isn't their fault that their actions are tainted by their inherent sin, since until God chooses to save them, they don't have much choice but to sin, so presumably their actions don't accumulate guilt any more than the same actions of a saved person would accumulate some kind of credit.

Given that most people would seem to be destined not to be saved, if most of the major world religions have got it wrong, and only a subset of Christians are not merely 'nominal' ones, do you have an opinion on how the vast bulk of people who are not yet saved should try to behave to each other.

Whether or not God is going to choose to save me, does it actually matter to Him if I try and help others during my earthly existence, or is it entirely irrelevant in the timescale of eterntity?

I'm *not* asking whether positive acts would increase one's chances of salvation, rather I'm wondering if there is any possible variation in the behaviour of the unsaved that makes any difference, or are all one's acts roughly equally stained with sin. If the latter is the case, one could be forgiven for thinking that one might as well just indulge away and hope for future salvation, as can presumably happen even to a dyed-in-the-wool sinner.

<>

To "true Christians", Islam may be an enemy religion, but if only .5% of Britons are "true Christians", than Britain can't really be considered a Christian nation and the views of "true Christians" aren't of significant importance if they are a tiny minority of the population.




<>

I would say it doesn't matter--high-level religious leaders may claim to be friends or enemies, but they won't have much real effect on the beliefs of the general public.

I think it is almost always helpful to try and understand the people around you. Just because you sit down and have discussions with someone and share your beliefs with each other doesn't mean that your beliefs have to change. Aren't we all doing that with each other here?

Sorry Justin, I confused this thread with your last one (with the first posting removed) but I still think Noggin's point in posting 83 neatly sums up why there is a lot of topic drift here. Any comments?

az

Justin -

My original post was only meant to be a humourous response and said:

"Bring on the ChrisLam! Together, they shall rule the earth!"

It's a facile and hypocritical attempt in my not so humble opinion. It will only spawn more conflict, more bloodshed and more heartache when it decides to collapse in on itself, and I am thoroughly glad that:

a) People are so incredibly dedicated to keeping church and state apart

and

b) I'm not involved in dogmatic religion.

Hallelujah, praise my SELF.

Bouncy - not at all. I just dislike hypocrisy, that's all. I applaud, and I will always applaud Justin for sticking to the right definition of what a Christian is. I've baited him - I'm a Satanist, that's my job. But in debate, I hold the place of the third side, and just because I disagree with someone, it doesn't mean to say I disrespect them. Unlike a lot of people around here who claim to be openminded, but the second something new or "offensive" comes along, their morals fly out the window...

*that was NOT aimed at any researcher in particular*

Sarkie,

Almighty God saves whom He wishes. This is His Earth; He made it, He owns it, and He sustains it, and when His work here is finished He will burn it.

He says to you that you must get rid of your sin, and He has provided a way out for you. It cost Him His Son's life. "Seek the Lord while He may be FOUND, call upon Him while He is hear."

J.

Potholer,

I did not mean that, quite. Everything they do is tainted with sin, not 'sinful' in itself, necessarily. They may be doing a good deed for some old lady, that is not sin.

I would take the view that what those artists do is more a case of the 'Emporers New Clothes' than art. It is just that a huge number of people do not have the courage to tell them that it is not art at all.

In one sense what you say is right. You cannot be more condemned than you are. You do not accumulate guilt, but you walk in sin as you have no choice. BUT, as I have pointed out, you can seek out the Lord Jesus, in the panic you should be feeling, to get rid of your sin, and be right with Him. Don't blame Almighty God, He has already paid a colossal price in the blood of His Son for you to be free.

Most people are destined to hear the Word of God preached, but they will reject it. They love their sin, and would rather fight the truth and debate the righteousness of God than submit.

I hope you will seek to do well while on the Earth. None of us are very long here. I was 21 only a few months ago, but my last birthday card said I was 48!

No amount of good works will alter your standing before God. NO good works done by sinners can earn any approval before God. CHRIST and His work on the Cross is all that God is satisfied with. You problem is that you do not see the magnitude of sin. This is a serious as an incoming nuclear ballistic missile strike. Ignore it at your peril. You need shelter.

You could just sit back and hope it is not true, but absolutely everyone gets incontrovertable proof eventually. You would do well to seek out Jesus Christ.

J.

Lemon,

I agree, Britain is not, and never has been, a Christian nation. Though it once honoured God, and God honoured it in return. Perhaps there was a time when the number of real Christians in this land was up to 15 or 20%, but now it is about 0.5%, though 72% say that they are Christians. The vast majority are Christians as you would think one to be, so their view does matter, I would say.

Thank you for your view.

J.

Blaue,

OK, thank you.

J.

Azahar,

You are on the wrong thread. The first post is still up on this one.

No, no comments.

J.