h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Actually, the site has become a bit "unbearable" in some places since 11th September 2001. Anti-American feeling (although, I hasten to add, not support for the terrorist attacks) seems to have increased here over the last year and a half and it was a private joke to me for a while that *any* political thread would decend into American-bashing within 20 posts

It's a shame, I like the political threads but a lot of people here tend towards belligerence and "studenty" absolutism sometimes.

Is it 'a lot of people', or is it the same people being absolutist over and over?

Regarding the Good Old Days, some people may only stick with the site for a year or two, and be truly missed when they leave, but if people focus on who is no longer here and how good things *used* to be, they may fail to give equal weight to worthwhile people who are recent recruits. New people may be as good as the old ones, but for whatever reason connections like those made in the past may be less easy.

As a poor example, it can be a bit like someone who reckons that there hasn't been any decent music recorded in the last decade, but fails to realise that they don't listen to the radio like they used to, and they're just not exposed to what good stuff is around.
Stretching the analogy, some bands may have been great at the time, but used up their material in the first few albums. Being upset that band XYZ has split up is OK for a while, but can look a bit sad if carried on to the exclusion of the search for new quality.

Possibly some people were regarded as heavyweights or legends in the past simply because they were around when the place was small, and, had they stayed, would have been revealed up as surprisingly small fish as the pond grew larger?

As someone who is too lazy to read the backlog, I think H2G2 has passed its prime as a discussion site. When I first started here, I was amazed at the fact that there were so few idiots running around posting to conversations. It seemed that all conversations were thought-provoking, everyone was willing to discuss rather than argue, and things were good all around.

Recently, I've noticed that "Ask H2G2" has been all about "What do you think about this...?" or "Let's play a word game!" As if all the good topics had been talked about already, and now people were stretching to keep the conversation going. This is the first post I've made in a couple of weeks, and I don't feel like I've missed anything.

I think any online community is eventually going to be pervaded by the general banality of the common internet user. It just took a little longer for H2G2.

By the way, there was a very similar question asked here not too long ago. So even this conversation topic has already been done.

Hmm.

Well, I've been here for pretty much the whole thing...

And I'm not leaving

I've never really gotten involved in the more frivolous sides of h2g2... never roleplayed, never forged deep or meaningful (or meaningless) relationships... but it's still a pleasant place to read a little, answer a couple of questions, engage in some mild debate, and generally relax

(plus it has the coolest smileys going )

Having read through the four leds of b'log since I posted here this morning, I've got two things to say.

Firstly, why do most of the people who are content with the current state of Ask h2g2 think that those of us who aren't so content want to turn it into an online amalgamation of the reading room at the British Museum, the debating chamber of the Oxford Union, and the Roman Senate? Jeez - if it was that serious I'd unsubscribe so fast the dust cloud wouldn't settle for a week!

Secondly, a good few Researchers have suggested unsubscribing from the forum and visiting it 'manually'. That would rob Ask h2g2 of its most valuable resource - us. Speaking for myself, if I wasn't subscibed to Ask h2g2 I doubt that I'd came here very often, especially if I knew it was going to be full of trivial threads. My view of Ask h2g2 is something like an 'Enquire Within'. If you need some information this is the place to come for it. You can ask a question about almost anything, and because so many h2g2 Researchers are subscribed to it there's a very good chance that you'll get an answer - often several

But if it becomes a place where Researchers just hang out and ask trivial questions of each other, and other Researchers unsubscribe because they don't want to be bothered with all that, Ask h2g2 will have utterly lost its purpose. I don't want to see that happen. Ask h2g2 is incredibly useful and has helped me out many times when I've needed to ask a question which couldn't be posted in one of the various h2g2 societies and user groups (Opera, Linux, whatever), and I believe I've also helped a few Researchers with answers to their questions.

So no - I don't want to unsubscribe from it, I don't want to have to tiptoe around it as if I was in a library, and I don't want to feel that I can't contribute unless I know seven conjugations of a latin verb, the entire theory of special relativity, and can discuss the merits of Mozart against Beethoven. I'm happy to see a few lighter conversations and some informed opinion

If you want to know what my favourite anything is though, or what school I went to, or what colour my walls are painted, either ask me at my PS or create an h2g2 society where Researchers can talk to their heart's content about stuff like that. There is a place for that kind of conversation on h2g2, but I don't think it's in this forum.

well i have just finished reading the back log from where i left it - around post 5 - and it has taken me about an hour as i didnt 'skim', but read all posts thoroughly.

I will be back with a reply but just want to

one of the methods that I use to maintain a good level of quality is to subscribe to things that have been interesting in the past.

for example, someone posted a linux question here that I couldn't answer. someone else posted a good reply, and also linked to the linux user group.

by subscribing to both the linux group and the unix group, I find that every now and then an interesting and quality conversation crops up.

the same applies to peer review and the writing workshops. by subscribing to them, you come across some real tripe, but also some good stuff. people then comment on them resulting in the general improvement of the entry. if they make it through peer review, I then try and make sure that I am subscribed to both the original entry, and the edited entry as well.

these also bring in a good conversation every now and then. As the number of entries you are intersted in goes up, and you subscribe to more of them, you gradually end up with more good conversations on your page, and less need to go hunting in the info page for new ones.

by adding people who challenge you to your friends list, you come across some interesting stuff on their user space, which also often turns into good stuff.

This is why the subscribe button was created, and why it is so usefull.

on a seperate point, some of us don't punctuate properly due to medical conditions (ie dysgraphia, dyslexia, etc) and other of us just can't spell.

i cant abide text talk ie "m8, ne1 wiv ne kewl peeps?"

drives me nuts, especially if the word has as many letters as the correct spelling ie kewl for cool.
But i accept that some people with mini keyboards or phone type displays maybe need to shortcut, but i just have to put it down as a personal dislike.
But sometimes i find the spelling is so bad it is actually impossible to understand what is being said.

Just my 2 penneth on spelling etc.

(although i will admit to using ppl instead of people and on occasion LOL)

i am scared to get involved in the serious conversations, even the ones i feel strongly about. i am a mild mannered man and there does seem to be many names in computer jargon you can get called if you break the 'unofficial' rules of online debate. i couldn't give any examples except to say that there appear to be people who are experienced online debaters who appear to argue for the hell of it and must feel good to put people down and pick unnessacery holes in others points. it is a shame, i have seen people stop posting in many threads because of silly actions towards there points and hostile reactions without reason. moderation hasn't helped neither.

if you take the time to lurk in the next thread that interests you, you will see what i mean.

now i find myself asking 'should i post this seemingly harmless post or should i read it through again to make sure i can't get blasted for anything?' surely this should not be the way! the idea of h2g2 was to share and learn, not impose and ignore.

This is what i have picked up on from the back log...
There seems to be several things that people seem to think has changed h2g2 in some way - not for the better.

1.The quality of discussions and in particular the type being posted in ask h2g2 and repetition of threads.

2.Total blasting of other researchers for opinion resulting in personal abuse and lack of respect.

3.Restrictions on Edited Guide entries (and the sub editing process etc) resulting in apathy of researchers to contribute when they get rejected for not following guidelines etc.

4.That the new researchers dont provide the same backbone to the site that maybe occurred with some original very active members.

5.Not feeling inclined to, or can't get involved in threads they think will be moderated or restricted in some way due to the BBC rules which was not what the original h2g2 was about etc etc

Think that about covers it.

Is that about right?

READ, TALK or CONTRIBUTE.
Those are the ideas behind the guide, and within that is enough to cater for everybody. I am by no means an 'oldtimer' here but equally i am not a 'newbie'. I spent the first 6 weeks doing nothing on site as i just didnt 'get it'. A comment i hear alot from people. But since then i have done all 3.

TALK - The difficulty is knowing where to do it. That is why , i think, that people have congregated in the ask h2g2 forum. (like a sixth form common room - someone said) It is one of the first places people find or are directed to and i think they tend to stay.

Threads will get repeated as the list of previous topics is too long to count - lots of pages and pages of threads which get shoved to the back of the list very quickly. New researchers will not trawl through them all, just in case it has been asked before, but simply post and they will probably get new responses as newer researchers will see the thread. Those that have contributed to a similar thread in the past may not want to repeat themselves but that doesnt mean that a whole new set of people aren't ready to.

I dont subscribe to the whole page but visit it once a day (along with the front page) and sub to any that i am interested in. (i tried subscribing to the whole page and found that i couldnt keep up with my conversations)

Maybe h2g2 could start an official quiz zone advertised on the page, there are many unofficial quizzes and word games going on anyway besides the word games on ask h2g2, maybe having an official zone would help us Countdown' fans have somewhere to play!


If you want to start a massive debate then we have speakers corner - which admittedly i didnt know about but it is there for use, perhaps a link from ask h2g2 would inform people of its existance.

The community decides what it wants and the community has developed ask h2g2 into a general discussion place for everything. Perhaps this wasnt the original idea behind ask h2g2 - i dont know - but it has naturally become this and so it by default must be what people want.

As for point 2 - blasting of other people...

One of the comments most heard from newbies has got to be 'everyone is so friendly here'
This is something we should be proud of. I am sure alot of people have experience of message boards or chat rooms where this isn't the case.
I find it very disheartening that in some threads (admmittedly those that can get quite heated due to the subject matter), some people resort to personal insults rather than using debate and discussion to argue a point. I understand why some would wish to unsubscribe from those threads and have often had to stop myself from losing it in a reply. It is not acceptable and only goes towards invalidating things a researcher may have said as people stop listening or respecting what they say. You dont have to agree with everyone but it is possible to say that you dont without being rude.
There is no need for it.

3 Writing
Well i can only speak as i understand it. The Edited Guide has guidelines. Editors have to make sure that entries fit that style. The comments about spelling etc paragraphs struck out and meaning of articles lost etc - i have heard that before. Start a debate on it? There are many other places for entries that dont fit the EG guidleines, AWW, The Post, Spooks Spaced Out guide and now the Underguide. If you dont want an article touched - dont submit it whilst the guidelines are as they are. No-one wants to discourage writing - thats why there are so many places to put it, if its worth reading then people will read it whatever.
I know that the EG wasnt what i expected it to be but thats why the UG is being created, to fill in the gap the EG leaves.

Oh i should also point out (for the benefit of any newbies etc) that whilst the EG guidlines (and editors) can ruin entries, all, but the italics, are volunteers and spend their free time doing this.

4 People will naturally move on, and i guess that those researchers that have been vital in helping the growth of the site may have RL changes that means they dont come here anymore. Also there are many still here that are active in other ways. I dont think it is fair to say that the site is lacking because of it. The site has grown massively - you only have to look at the new researchers list every day to see how many people are joining. Like i said before, i am no old timer having been here a mere 6 months but feel that in that time i have contributed quite alot to the site. (circumstances allow me too and i appreciate that others can't).

5. Well in these times it is difficult, but if we can make it through this was then who's to say we won't be less moderated the next time. I know the feeling of avoiding a thread because i fear it will turn into a slanging match and end up moderated because of abuse. But in that case we need to look to ourselves to act responsibly and show that we can be discuss sensitive topics maturely. Nobody wants a row but some people seem to enjoy antagonising other researchers. I guess that goes back to showing respect. Policy guidelines - well for all the protestations of how we can be trusted to discuss *the you know what*, i have seen many posts that prove the opposite.

sorry about so many posts but i find it easier to read shorter ones than a big long one.

Also having re-read the bit about the subeds - i didnt mean they volunteer to ruin articles i meant that some people feel that they do and just wanted to point out that we do the editing work as volunteers under guidance from Anna.

Recently there has been an influx of younger researchers - many from Lesiure district (although not all young!) and they are often expecting a similar set up with chat rooms etc. Loup and Manda have set up a great place to accomodate them with a friendly area where they have all met up again. But in general the expectations of newer younger researchers maybe similar and ask h2g2 is perhaps filling the gap for them.

There is a place for everything here, and it will continue to change as the needs of the researchers change. The biggest problem i think is finding all the places available where you can find discussion and debate, which as i said in my first(ish) post is why people find ask h2g2 and stay there.

Sorry for the long posts, no offence meant to anyone and i hope i explained what i wanted to.

Mort

mort...

i haven't time to respond to some of the points that have been raised in this thread [tho' some are rather similar to the "petty hates" one...] just now...

but i can add to what you've said in your last post as you've mentioned the LDers space and some of our projects [the FoLDers Arms being one of the 5 busiest conversations pratically every day...]...



hi everyone...

the FoLders Arms has proved to be a wonderful way of helping newly arrived ex-LDers to cope with the huge site that h2g2 is... and even so we still have some kinda chat-like expressions and abbreviations used there, people are relatively quickly adapting to the h2g2 ways.. why?!.. because we are there to help them _not_ judge them... and it works... but then again wasn't it how h2g2 was supposed to work?! you know: veteran researchers helping the new ones to adapt etc?!... or maybe i got that wrong as well...

did i mis-read some of the comments made in this thread?! i hope i have as i've found that some of the newly arrived researchers have got quite a lot to say actually.. ok, maybe they haven't grasped the h2g2 ways of posting but that doesn't necessarily make them less worthy, they _only_ need to be given a chance...

former chat-sites users [and maybe specifically LDers] can also contribute to the quality of this site... some have already got some entries in the edited guide... some are also ACEs and/or GURUs... some are contributing in many different ways as well...

mmmmmm... i did say that i couldn't post too much just now so i will finish with one question:

does the fact that i don't use capital letters in my postings indicates any lack of intelligence of my part?!...

i hope not somehow...

"looking for the friendly aspect of h2g2 at the moment"loup

Having just ploughed through this entire conversation, I'm going to put my opinion forward on many of the points made in probably a mish-mash as different things re-occur to me.

Spelling, punctuation, grammar:

Good spelling and punctuation make comments much, much easier to read. Good grammar makes them easier to understand. I find it a struggle to read text which is badly spelt and punctuated, especially long entries. I'm well educated, with a reasonably good grasp of English. In my opinion, those who can should do their best to spell and punctuate well and to use good grammar. This makes it easier for others to read and understand their comments.

Yes, not everyone is an English native speaker and there are doubtless a good proportion of those around with learning difficulties and the like. However for non-native English speakers, more exposure to well-written English is good. It reduces the exposure to bad habits they may learn and it helps understanding - well written text in any language is easier to understand than badly written text. Correct spellings make words easier to look up or recognise and correct grammar makes sentences easier to translate. Similarly, for those with learning difficulties it is easier to understand a well-written paragraph than one with no stops or breaths.

Using, for example, capitals to begin sentences and proper nouns helps people to see what might be a name compared with just another thing and to see the beginnings and ends of sentences. The latter is very important. It splits the paragraph up into more manageable chunks, and again this is very important for those already struggling to read.

I'm not perfect, I make spelling mistakes, I write too long sentences, I typo quite a bit, I miss the shift key occasionally but I TRY. It annoys me more when someone doesn't try than when someone, who is much worse, does.

Intellectual versus "average":

Both levels of debate have their place here. Intellectual debate is great for sharing deep ideas with others we wouldn't otherwise have the chance to know. It broadens the horizons, the backgrounds from which the participants come and so lets us see a wider perspective on the matters at hand.

Equally, less deep conversation which want to know about, for example small matters of our childhood, have their place. It brings home the similarities and differences between us, whereever we come from. I hope that it then allows for further understanding that we are all different and still all similar. At whatever level someone can understand this, increasing that or any other understanding in some way is a Good Thing.

The "trivial" have their place too - a place to relax and not care too much about deep matters, to not need brain food. Many of us h2g2 after a hard day and it is the lightweight conversations which we need, not the deep ones. Maybe there might have been a better place for them but they have found their way here and it is not inappropriate that they stay. They are asking their questions in their own way.

Slanging matches aren't my idea of good debate - usually because the mud-slingers aren't listening and learning, just reiterating their point again and again. That's much less what I feel h2g2 should be, but I'm not the only person around.

Ask-h2g2 seems to me to be one of the most varied places in h2g2. Each individual community within h2g2 (from the various pubs, the beach etc) still has representatives here. It's a place to mix and meet new people. Here is where I meet many researchers I would never see in the other h2g2 realms I frequent - we have different tastes and preferences, are of different eras of h2g2. The variety of conversations at all levels of preference and ability is good. It makes a change from the other parts of h2g2 and even from my social real life - where my friends are much of a muchness with respect to education, all went to some of the most elite universities in the country. I try to remember "don't look down, or up, look across as equals to someone who is different."

"...just reiterating their point again and again."

Hmmm, where did I put that ?

B