h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

*(Belatedly) waves back to Tonsil*

Excellent comments on this page. I don't think we need be worrying about the content of h2g2 with these sort of people around.

I see that should have read the last page!

As one of the not English native speakers I have to agree. It is easier to read a well written post and it helps us, me, whatever, to get better with English. Hey, I learned more in the 3 years I've used the internet than in the 9 years I had English in school.

And I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen too often that the editors "ruin" an entry since I have one in PR right now.

Methos

*phew* just read the entire backlog

I think the problem with H2G2 nowadays is that everyone is so careful. I like having discussions, also intellectual discussions. One of the reasons I like this place is I can discuss things that make me be classified a freak in real life. But now it seems that as soon as a discussion gets a bit passionate, people call it a flame war. There doesn't have to have been any name-calling or general insults. Just if people start to care about the topic, people run away afraid to get their fingers burned. So all we get now are threads that are sure not to offend anyone, like what is outside your window right now. Sad.

" I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen too often that the editors "ruin" an entry "



The Editors, I'm sure, pick out two or three Recommended Entries every week and methodically tear them to shreds. My advice: Get a friendly Sub-editor on your side ().

B

*bookmarking*

There are plenty of serious discussions here in amongst the trivia, you just have to search for them a little harder than previously - try going back a few pages so you see all the conversations from the past 24-48 hours rather than those updated in the last hour or so. Personally I like a good mix of the serious (I don't always contribute but usually read), the trivial (contribute until I get bored then unsub), and the useful (I like to help if I can).

I don't subscribe to askh2g2 because I lose track of my conversations but do swing by when I am online to see if there is anything interesting going on. I like smileys for enhancing posts, and making them a little more colourful. I get irritated by them if used in place of any real thought.

k - heavyweight but not the kind *you* mean.

Sir Mort said:

"The community decides what it wants and the community has developed ask h2g2 into a general discussion place for everything. Perhaps this wasnt the original idea behind ask h2g2 - i dont know - but it has naturally become this and so it by default must be what people want."

If that's the case, then perhaps the Editors could either create 'Ask h2g2 II', with the idea of it being the place to go if you need some information or an opinion from other Researchers - the 'Enquire Within' that I described yesterday, and then rename this forum, or they should create an entirely new place for Researchers to congregate, and replace the link to Ask h2g2 here A868098 with a link to the new meeting place. It could be called a Village Green, a Town Square, a pub, a message board, whatever. Something symbolic of a place where people go to hang out.

I say that the Eds should do this rather than one of us because an 'officially' created virtual place always carries more weight than a Researcher-created one, in the same way that edited entries are seen as more authoratative than unedited entries, and this new place could almost be described as a Help Page of sorts. I hope that Researchers will continue to create their own places, but I believe there should be a core of h2g2 spaces such as Ask h2g2, the Community Soapbox, the Feedback and Help Pages, etc.

I spent my childhood and adolescence on a 1950s built council estate in Essex. The word 'estate' conjures up pictures for most people of run down inner city tenaments. This one wasn't like that - it was (still is) an entire community of low-rise housing spread out like a small town within a town, and when they built it the local authority provided for communal needs by building shops, schools, municipal parks, a hall for groups such as the Scouts, Girl Guides, and local societies to use. It was a great place to grow up. Maybe h2g2 has grown to the point where we need a few more ameneties to be built by the 'local authority'.

"...but it has naturally become this and so it by default must be what people want".

It may be what many people want, but way back there in the b'log, someone (Blatherskite I think) pointed out that popularity and what the majority want is by no means a validation of the quality or usefulness of something. Two words - reality shows. One more word - Fox.

Kinda bookmarking, but kinda need to re-say the points I have either been saying or thinking.

* This site is what we make it. If something is lacking, it isn't necessarily someone else's fault - it could be yours. Or mine. Depends how we look at it.

* It's not all about askh2g2. It's a great part of the site, and really really interesting as well as useful, but there are still Guide Entries to write...

* I think maybe we are hitting that point where the old timers are getting disgruntled, and the new timers are obviously inexperienced. There is a younger crowd. We just need to pass on the knowledge from the elders to the youngers, and find that second breath of life for h2g2.

Methinks it is time to flush the toilet, and begin again? Pull the focus back onto the site, and not the threads? People, be more . The world ain't up to much in terms of peacefulness. The last thing we need is for it to refract back onto here. Start a new debate : regardless of whether it has been done before - there are new people, new resources, new viewpoints on every subject available. Write new entries! Don't just sit and stagnate!!!!

I am largely with Gosho on this one.

While I think it is impossible to set standard criteria for which posts are trivial and which are important, I do think that his criterion for separation: Those questions which are asked out of need, and which are seeking a pertinant answer - is a valid one.

If you are asking out of need - not necessarily just practical, but also intellectual - then it is useful to have a space where researchers can find your question and others like it easily. The question could still be framed in a light-hearted, amusing, ironic or whatever manner, but it is necessarily one that seeks an answer based on a need of the inquirer.

That rules out questions that are just there to promote fun or banish boredom - i.e. questions that need not even be questions, but could equally well just be amusing comments - without further purpose.

I believe that these in themselves are enormously important and great fun, but that they should be separated from genuine inquiries for basic reasons of practicality. If you want to ask a genuine question, it is good to know there is a place for that and that only.

Maybe Ask H2G2 was supposed to be that from the start. I don't know. I wasn't here. But I think it has now become a free-for-all place where everyone can say what they like. And I think that is great. What better way to encourage new people than simply invite them to ask a question - and not even necessarily a serious one - and all comers are treated alike.

Hence - I would push for a separate area, away from Ask H2G2, for questions of serious intent only - for the very reasons of utility that Gosho has stated.

You see? I asked a silly question, and I learned something new.

One of the problems with new threads covering the same topics again and again could be solved fairly easily by one of the requested improvements to DNA - the ability to search for a thread *within* an entry. So if someone wanted to debate...umm...paeophilia/child abuse they could search askh2g2 and revive an older thread. Likewise if someone was interested in finding out what music everyone is listening to they could do the same. An added bonus would be the ability to search for random subjects/words and find old threads that are well worth reviving

At the top of the list at the moment there are 3 "Serious" threads, 3 requests for information and 4 games. This seems like quite a good mix to me, I guess it all depends when you look. If the top of the list is full of "what colour are your socks" threads when I go to look I just scroll down a bit.

A serious threads only forum could be a good thing, but it is often the case that I come to askh2g2 for a bit of light relief only to stumble across a thread that is interesting and thought provoking and somehow find myself drawn in...

If ask became a fluffy threads only forum I think I'd spend a lot less time here, but might feel intimidated/put off by the serious only forum. Although I occasionally have something worthy to say, I might be intimidated about saying it in a forum for intellectuals where it may be judged to be not of a high enough standard.

Could some indexing (official or otherwise) of 'Ask h2g2' conversations (apart from the simply chatty or clearly trivial) be useful?

Randomly scanning through the conversation listings, there seem to be areas where some kind of categorised index might help newcomers to find relevant old conversations, and either join in or realise their point has already been made, or their questions answered.

It wouldn't have to be an exclusive or comprehensive index, just one that helped people find what they were looking for most of the time. For example, given a deliberately non-exhaustive list of categories like: Science, Medicine, Religion, Philosophy/Morality, Sex/Gender, Nationalities, Language and Computers, then creationism/evolution conversations could come under both science and religion, abortion under both sex/gender and morality, etc.
A length-sorted list (or at least an indication of conversation length) could help people pick out the likeliest candidate conversations to examine.

To avoid a huge amount of categorisation work, it might be best to leave conversations to run for some days before considering including them in the index. Maybe volunteers could maintain the index for an area they were keen on, with the assistance of some kind of submission/hinting mechanism for other people to make them aware of relevant threads that might have escaped their attention.

There may be many people who don't subscribe to the entire 'Ask h2g2' forum who would find a less-cluttered subset worth subscribing to, and they may end up making a contribution to threads on their areas of interest they may have missed otherwise.

I've brought this up at the Community Soapbox F55683?thread=264448, which is the place we go to talk to the Italics and other Researchers about matters concerning the community. Please feel free to add any views and opinions that you see fit

Hmm. So many posts. It's good that so many people feel so strongly about this. Many we'll affect some change around here.

I have to say though, I don't favour the segregation suggestions much at all. I really don't like the idea of a 'serious' debating forum and such things. Creating little clubs and societies doesn't appeal to me. I like AskH2G2 because it is the place where everyone is at. I like the varied responses.

To be honest, my original post was just a moan. I really didn't expect much of a reaction, let alone people suggesting solutions. To be honest, this thread alone has silenced me on the subject. So many thoughtful posts over the period of about 24 hours.

This is what I was looking for really, I'd just like to see more of it.

Looks like some moans have their moments.

I don't think the issue is one of "serious debate" versus the rest. It is, from my point of view, a purely pragmatic issue.

Those researchers who ask questions based on a genuine need, intellectual, practical or whatever - which would be satisfied by an answer - get a place just for that.

I don't even think it is an issue of segregation here.

Ask H2G2 could be left just as it is. But if you have a question with a geniune intent for an answer behind it, then you get the option to ask it at a place where everyone goes with the same need.

I like the search and index idea pencil queen. It would be nice to easily include past threads of the same topic. Especially in science, I have noticed how fast things change. Also in social issues as people become more aware. It shows some evolution of thought in some areas.It would be more of a built in historical account of convos, thoughts and ideas progressing.

However how many are gonna read all that backlog then?

Saturnine just summed up the essence of the problem:

"* I think maybe we are hitting that point where the old timers are getting disgruntled, and the new timers are obviously inexperienced. There is a younger crowd. We just need to pass on the knowledge from the elders to the youngers, and find that second breath of life for h2g2."

If there weren't so many dynamics within the community and within the processes that cause oldtimers to get disgruntled, those oldtimers would not only be passing on that knowledge, but coaching and grooming them into elders, while still producing quality material themselves. In this way, the quality of the Guide would steadily improve. Before the disgruntlement set in, this was what was taking place... good gods, you should have seen the garbage we were producing in those first 6 months.

Instead, the oldtimers take off or remain, but find other amusements, and the newbies are left more or less to find their way themselves. That means they have the same learning curve we had back then. The overall quality of the Guide remains constant, as the cycle from newbie to oldtimer to disgruntled former researcher repeats itself over and over again.

Those who do not seek intellectual stimulation or try to write for the Guide do not get disgruntled, because they're not bothered so much by the problems... they may never even see them. Those people stick, and disgruntled researchers leave. It's no wonder there is so much difficulty finding intelligent conversations in Ask H2G2 anymore.

Here are the specific problems:

1) Shoddy editing - This one can actually be gotten around if you put in the work and make an entire University Project, because you have the opportunity to choose your sub, and get more involved in the editorial process. I've been very happy with my experiences through this route so far. It's a good way for oldtimers to contribute. But I haven't seen that University projects are promoted very much, when completed.

2) Lack of standards - If an article is incomplete, it still goes on the homepage. Many times those picked are barely acceptable, but the Scout has to find something. Something that isn't finished should be sent to the Writing Workshop for finishing... if the author is uninterested, maybe someone else would be willing to add the missing pieces for a co-credit.

3) Intolerance of Excellence - When criticisms are offered in PR that a piece needs something, often times the writer gets defensive, and when that happens, various members of the community come in and defend the writer. If that's the best the writer could do, I respect that... but more often the writer is capable of better, and just doesn't want to. Or someone else could add the missing pieces. Let's not shoot the messenger for a quite valid message.

4) Political Climate - Two Bit and I have often remarked that there is a strong leaning to the left in this site. That's fine. But it often means an intolerance of centrist or right views. I've seen a lot of people show respect for each other's religious views, but not a lot of respect for political views. Good political debate is a hallmark of a community that nurtures intellectualism. People are afraid to have a good political debate here anymore, and not just because a certain topic is currently off limits. Let's show a little respect when we do so... as in religion, nobody has the absolute answer.

5) Abhorrent Prejudices Regarding Intelligence - Start any conversation about the topic of human intelligence, and watch it devolve into the nastiest behavior in under 40 posts. How can a site keep thoughtful, intelligent people if it can't even have a rational conversation on what intelligence is?

Those are some of the problems I've seen. And, as you can see, they're mostly based on the social dynamics of this site, and have very little to do with the Italics. If the Guide is going to get any better, it'll have to be because the community makes an effort to mature and grow together.

Isn't it all about *us*, faults and all. If some are lacking to other standards, let it be known but don't damn the entire system. I can't help but say the *e* word here, being a parent. If I condemn my children's spelling and love of Hip-hop and choice of friends without explaining my position and their consequences, that is elitism. I would never regulate them to the point of making them do everything I want.

I have to say, I don't recall 'intelligence' discussions being common on Ask h2g2, let alone being predestined to degenerate to nastiness. In fact, the only conversations on intelligence that spring to my mind, I browsed through after the event, as it were, (I'm not even sure they were in Ask h2g2) and they were part of a history that may be best left alone.

If there are specific people who troll in conversations of a certain nature, that is a problem with those people. If there are topics that cause otherwise stable people to go off the deep end, maybe those conversations should come with a please-be-moderate/mental health warning attached. Either way, I don't see it's the fault of h2g2 as a whole, or 'ask h2g2 in particular. Maybe some topics are so inflammatory they should have blanket premoderation (though a one-post-a day conversation could get old very quickly).