h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I almost forgot the "tunnel of light" thing. It is true some people have come back after they were clinically dead. But isn´t that more a problem with finding out when you define a person as being dead. I remember reading an article where somebody claimed they had found proof of life after death, because they could show brain activity in people considered clinically dead. To me that just shows the dead-criteria is wrong. If you went back to mideaval times and gave a guy who was drowning mouth to mouth, you would also be considered to have raised the death.
Lyall Watson has written a book about this called The Romeo Error. I haven´t been able to find it but when I do I will probably get answered a lot of questions about this.

I have just reread my last entry and I want to apologise to everyone if I come off sounding like a patronising old fart. The trouble, you see, is that I am a patronising old fart and nothing can be done about that, but I should try harder not to sound like one!
It's just that I am so pleased that this thread seems to be working for so many people. No spitting, no flaming ..everyone's keeping an open mind and opening up about their personal 'phenomena' and beliefs that one normally can't discuss in polite society.
Thank you all.
peace
~jwf~

Yes, precisely - if you took a computer back to the dark ages and somehow got it working and hooked up to the Internet as of 2001 and showed people h2g2, they would think that magic was involved, because the technology is so far ahead of their understanding.

Having said that, the same could very well be true of the 19th Century. We have progressed so far and so fast that perhaps we have left some of the truly important things behind.

I saw a theory about the tunnel and the light that speculated that since it's so universal among near-death experiencers it is either
a) true
or b) a perceptual manifestation of the physical conditions experienced by the brain at the time of the near-death experience, specifically lack of blood supply

I actually find the second argument quite convincing.

Yes, I'll take door No.2 as well then please. But like any 'trip' you gotta wonder, how long does it last.

Which gives rise to the various burial rituals of different cultures. Many will not bury or cremate a body until they are sure the spirit is completely gone and only a husk is left. In some cases days, for others, weeks.
Some insist on no modification of the corpse and burial within 24 hours. Others 'mummify' completely. Organs are removed, fluids replaced with formaldehyde. Or something close to that which preserves the body long enough for public viewing.
Many aboriginals just hang the body out to air dry. Others render it to the bones and in some cases even consume some of the flesh.

If door number 2 is a shut-down process how can we ever be sure long it takes. And should the body be disturbed or modified at all. It gets a little scary as you get older (I speak as an expert for once) wondering who will do what to you when you're 'gone'. I am trying to arrange for my remains to buried in earth, in a plain wooden box, with no 'preparations' at the earliest possible moment.
Yep, Mister Natural, that's me!

Of course the problem with the modern world is that even dying costs horrendous amounts of money...

agcBen --

I haven't read the whole thread yet (limited time and dyslexia are my enemies on the Web) but I liked what you had to say on the nature of belief.

I never argue spiritual beliefs, because, as a friend of mine used to say; "Even if they're right, they're only guessing." I reckon that "whatever gets you through the night" is the best possible answer for each individual. Whatever the Truth is, it will still be the Truth whether anyone believes it or not, and we'll all find out what is True eventually, I suppose. In the meantime, to each her own comfort and welcome, as long as I'm not required to subscribe.

That said, I'm a reincarnationist, too (although I don't believe in the transmigration of souls, however much I'd like to come back as an otter or a dolphin), my reasoning being that life is often pretty much a waste if one is all you get, and it makes more sense to me if we're collecting everything we can about human experience, to take along to other combinations of many fellow fragments of the Life Force in different form a step along the evolutionary path, and so on and so forth until "we" merge again with the Life Force and maybe split off again to experience other forms of intelligent life, or even start the cycle again as humans... I don't need to cross every 't' and dot every 'i', because, well, even if I'm right, I'm only guessing. And what is most important to me is that I feel, in the face of bad days and apparently senseless happenstance, that ultimately nothing is wasted. *That* is what gets me through the night.

Mal

When I was six I believed there was an internationally reknowned showjumping champion doing a show down the road (called Jim Carner).
Funny how things get out of context. Belief, Scientific "truth",
It's All Conjecture, innit? I guess a guess is as good as a Godhead

MaW wrote:
"Of course the problem with the modern world is that even dying costs horrendous amounts of money..."
Not for the dead it doesn't.

The making of life is free and so is the ending of it. Living a life is also free unless you are trapped in a so-called civilised society.
Why do "anthropologists" insist on seeking out societies untouched by the modern world, make a documentaries about them and sell books (yeah, yeah we all know the answer!).

Religion - the *opium* of the masses. Give me drugs anytime (like the one I'm on now - burp[excuse me]).

MaW, if I thought anyone would be out of pocket dealing with my corpse, I'd make sure my body couldn't be found or failing that go to the bank, draw out some money and put it in an envelope marked, "in the event of my death".

You'll have to excuse me folks, it's been a *t**t* of a week!!

Yes, it's very easy to forget that the way I live is not the only way to live - nor necessarily the best way to live. In fact, I'm sure it isn't.

Maybe there is no free will involved?
Fate?
Destiny is pre-ordained?
************************
Nope, don't subscribe to any of that. I believe everyone/anyone can make a difference.
Wasn't one man nailed to a cross awhile ago? Probably hundreds of thousands were. What was so different about Him?
Belief?

We're all insane. All of us function in a self-contained reality, composed of our experiences, and how we interpret them. If we didn't have some frame of "normalcy" that we could all refer to commonly, then we'd be absolutely unable to communicate. Think of our reality as this forum, and our frame of normalcy as the dictionary and rules of grammar. Cood oui al kumyunikait guid whithout it?

James Randi has been offering a million dollars for some years now for anyone who can demonstrate paranormal ability in a controlled experiment. People who can douse or control the weight of a tennis ball should definitely apply, not only for the money, but for the prestige of proving all of us skeptics wrong.

But, as I said, all of us function in our own reality, and interpret our external stimuli according to our own desires. It's quite easy to imagine a tennis ball becoming perceptibly heavier or lighter... especially since thinking about it will cause your arm to move subconsciously in the corresponding direction, which will in turn cause adjustments in the tension of the muscles involved... making the job of holding it easier or harder.

Being as punctual and current as ever, I'd like to go back to a point made by someone eighteen hours ago.

About the 'tunnel of white light' there can be said many things. There's one thing that can be said, however, that effectively has the concept over a barrel.

Research was undertaken in America last year into what exactly happens during G-LOC (Gravity induced Loss Of Consciousness) in Fighter Pilots. They found that when the brain is starved of oxygen (either due to the heart stopping or through extaneous amounts of gravity) it begins to send out rapid bursts of synaptic energy to the perceptual organs. In the ears it causes sporadic fits of hearing, likewise smell in the nose; but it gets interesting when the eyes are affected. Being optic organs, the synaptic pulses are seen as momentary flickers of white light, centering brightly on a central point (the density of the optic nerve at the back of the eye being greater towards the middle, meaning that there is a greater visible discharge towards the center than at the edges), creating a 'tunnel of white light' that the almost-dead person can see even without their eyes open.

To make matters more interesting the brain also has itself flooded with stimulants in order to try and rouse the body. This causes activation of recent memories (showing us those 'gone before', beckoning us into the light). It also causes hallucination of the regular sort. And with the body being uncoscious the sub-conscious is emptied out and you hallucinate about whatever is close to you (be it past relatives or 'God' itself).

If you accept that research as acceptable, then there goes the tunnel of white light theory.

Is Zimmerman (you do mean Bob Dylan not the holodoctor on Voyager - right) really 60?
Gad.
I remember Booby from the days when we all (even him) said 'Don't trust anyone over 30!'
Now that he's twice that, do we have to trust him again?
What if we no longer trust ourselves?

In a futile attempt to convince Col. Sellers of at least one paranormal phenomena he can be witness too - I offer the following words - 'runaway boat'. Now, that may not, and may never, mean anything, but the 'voices in the noises' said I should say that.
(It's probably just a flashback to that Bond movie they made in the Everglades - or a past-due reference to little Elio the Cuban refugee - I seem to recall the Col. is Floridian where no doubt runaway boats are as common as recounts.)

You misremember, I am afraid. Florida is often called the "California of the East" by the locals, precisely because they are so jealous of us *real* Californians. Florida is like California, only with alligators, humidity, and old people.

And no, 'runaway boat' doesn't mean anything to me right now. But if my little brother reports something weird happened to him on his ship sometime in the next few days, I'l let you know.

Fair enough. I suppose it would be silly of me to ask if your bother 'ran off' to join the Navy.
Are you in San Diego?
If so, have you ever hear of a 'harp' (blues harmonica) player name of David Hellyer? Last I heard he was living the good life in Southern California. OK it's probably a dumb question (I got millions of 'em) but it is a small world. After all.

Yeah, my brother did, despite the advice of his older and wiser sibling...

I'm 120 miles north of San Diego. I've visited many times... nice place. But if I've ever encountered a harmonica player there, he didn't advertise the fact. So the world looks just a bit larger today.

Some days the world looks almost impossibly large... and the people in it look almost impossibly silly. Or at least, some of them do. Perhaps if everyone in the world (or at least in the so-called 'civilised' world) spent more time contemplating mysteries as we are doing here, they'd be too busy to insult, assault, kill, rape and generally be unpleasant to each other.

* topic drift alert *

On the other hand, going too far could be seen to be a problem as well, lest the service industries collapse, leading to no power for the computer, no internet to access h2g2 through, and no food or water to live on.

I think a happy medium would have to be found.

Well, it would get me through the night to believe I wouldn´t have to get up for work. But my boss would get really mad. Even though something is nice to believe in, isn´t it better to know how the world really is? Blinding yourself won´t change the world, instead it´s better to be prepared for how it is.

Xanatic said:

"Even though something is nice to believe in, isn´t it better to know how the world really is?"

Well, yeah, for everyday stuff. Since no one has yet come up with a practical way of determining what, if anything, happens to the personal essence, if any, after death, that's not an area where we're likely to see any breakthroughs to the Truth any time soon, so there's not a lot of point in worrying about whether what I believe, or you believe, or s/he believes is True or not. Whatever helps folks cope with living their lives and contemplating their "ultimate, friendly death" is their own business. As long as nobody tries to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and I should believe what *s/he* believes, it's all good. because I know I don't know what I'm talking about, but I also know that nobody else does, either. That's why it's a Belief issue.

Edward DeVere, the Earl of Oxford during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I, hung out with some mighty odd people. He once wondered aloud what it might be like to die by hanging. One of his buddies promptly volunteered to find out, and hanged himself. Of course Eddy never got a report on the experience, but that's about where most explorations of the Truth about an afterlife end up, so far. "Even if they're right, they're only guessing." Go with what makes you feel better about how you live your life, content in the knowledge that you'll find out soon enough what, if anything, comes later.

And I'm with you about the not having to get up for work the next day thing, but I'm not sure how that relates to the existence and nature or lack thereof of an afterlife. I was addressing the broader, spiritual sphere in my comments.

Apathetics explanation of the USMilitary's G-LOC experiments is probably as good and critically scientific an analysis and synopsis of the mind/body function in 'near death' experiences as we'll ever find. Done with the very best controlled control-group a scientist could hope for, I think we can accept the conclusion that 'near death' experiences result from certain common physiological actions which result in common observed perceptions and reactions.

Let me further suggest, just for the sake of conjecture, that a 'near death' experience is only near death and that it is nothing like a death experience. The mind/body is obviously preparing for events to go either way. The common observed reactions, visions, and thought patterns are now demonstrated to be the result of actions the body takes to stay alive. The study probably fails to include or identify the most common 'near death' factoid - they didn't die.