h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

The other week as I caught the train home I disposed of my superfluous spent tickets in the bin of the rear carriage as I exited and was then caught out in an ad-hoc ticket inspection inside the station proper. I blogged out this in my journal. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/classic/F40114?thread=6981554&skip=0&show=20 In brief: I explained how I had not travelled illegally and had purchased tickets but couldn't present them at that time and explained why, where they were etc. Now I've received a letter from the 'prosecution's office' of East Midlands Trains. The interesting bit reads: "All the evidence available is being considered as to whether legal proceedings are appropriate. If you consider there are further mitigating factors that may influence any decision that may be made about this matter you are invited to respond, in writing, within 14 days of this letter [...] additional correspondence from this office may incur departmental costs." So what should I put in the letter? Clive.

Your solicitors name and address. More specifically, get a solitictor to write it for you.

Fixed the subject-heading.

I don't have a solicitor.

Are you supposed to carry the ticket with you on the train (which you did) or until you exit the station?

I've no idea what to write but might be tempted by a bit of 'keep Britain tidy' grovelling (+your own fault, a habit you've got into 'cos you're a freguest traveller, misconception about the rules....)

btw: writing to say you've got 14 days to answer but they might charge you anyway for their time is revolting. Why bother going through the whole rigmarole of writing to you in the 1st place if it's to tell you that answer might push up your costs!

I think the tacit rule must be until you exit the station, but I did have a ticket for the portion of my journey (the conductor even stamped it, and kindly stepped to one-side when I asked to get to the bin as I exited.)

I was in my interview asked faintly facetious questions like: did I see any posters saying I could travel for free?

On the contrary. There are posters reminding you to have a ticket when you travel, not to mention that I'd had a ticket (past tense).

If push comes to shove I've got my bank statement that can show what I purchased on that day or not. £5.40 8.10am approx should be on there.

I rather feel I explained myself fully in my my interview 'further mitigation' sounds like a hostage to fortune. So I'm not looking for legal advice exactly rather I'm just really wondering what sort of things DO go into a letter like this.

I think that should do it as that will be proof of purchase of the ticket and the inferred fact that you travelled with the ticket but disposed of it once you had stopped travelling at the station.

And also having the portion of the ticket for your journey.



That is merely them getting the only kick in their sad little lives.

Of course, if they do let you off you can always put in a complaint to their superiors about their attitude towards you and the guilty until proven attitude they were giving.

I thought I was being unfailing good humoured and polite given the circumstances, as a parting shot I wished the lady good luck in catching the real thieves (by definition not counting myself amongst their number) and the station manager harangued me before I'd reached the top step of the underpass and told me off for being sarcastic.

Conclusion: grumpy people work in stations.

Having looked at your blog I would consider complaining to whichever version of OFCOM/OFWAT looks after the train system and say you consider this *might* be entrapment or verging on illegal methods of extorting fines from people.

As you had finished your journey and was in the station off the platform you have no requirement to have a ticket as your journey had finished. Hence, you threw the ticket away. *They* must know that many people will do this...on the few occasions that I lower myself to using buses I throw the ticket away as I walk off the bus. Hence, they know they will catch people in this way and *nmight* illegally get money out of people. Of course, they may not realise that they are potentially breaking the law themselves in this way.

The onus should be on the people prosecuting you to prove that you did not have a ticket when you travelled on the train, not for you to prove you did have a ticket and that you threw it away.

Hence, complain to the regulator that ad hoc ticket inspections should only be carried out when on the train when someone is actually committing the crime.

Your contract between the rail company and yourself finished once you were off the train. You paid them to transport you to a certain place. They did that. Once you are off the transport the contract has been completed.

Of course, you could also send all this to Watchdog now it back on TV. I am sure they will love to hear of a *potential* entrapment scam.

Hence, I suggest you also find out when the contract, as indicated by you having the ticket, ends. Once it does end then I would say the ticket inspectors have no right to ask you to see a ticket as you are no longer in any contractual agreement with the company they work for...you a merely a private citizen walking through a train station.

NOTE: to stop this getting hidden due to libel I have said *potentially* and *might* in the post...I am not accusing anyone of acting illegally just the potential for this to be the case.

3Dots raised a good point - you don't have to have a ticket to be on the platform, so you weren't doing anything wrong disposing of your ticket once you'd finished travelling. They've got to prove your guilt, you don't have to prove your innocence.

I'd stick in a complaint against the way the staff spoke to you, as 3Dots suggests.

P.S. I'll send the invoice for the legal advice in the post.

Years of listening to consumer programmes on radio. It's all in the contract usually.

Problem here is if you get a solicitor you'll be spending cash that ry you shouldn't be and it will be cheaper than paying the fine.

Try Citizens Advice Bureau

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_world/travel/public_transport.htm

Read the section in above link:


Railway operators can impose a penalty fare on a passenger who travels ****without the correct ticket in some areas****. This will be an on the spot penalty above the normal fare and is not a fine. If the fare you should have paid is £10.00 or less, the penalty will be £20.00. If the fare was over £10.00, the penalty fare will be double the fare.

You may want to appeal against a penalty fare if there was:-

*****insufficient notice that you were travelling in a penalty fare area because, for example, signs were inadequate,******

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/6139083/Rail-penalty-fares-to-soar-under-Government-plans.html#

"Even seeing somebody off without a platform ticket in so-called Compulsory Ticket Areas - which include London station Marylebone and Snow Hill in Birmingham - could lead to a £50 fine. "

They may try to get you under the compulsory ticket areas...though I have never heard or ever seen signage to this effect anywhere in stations. Never knew there were any. Check the station you got off at.

First things first, that's getting the fine - if indeed applicable - waived.

Like it or not, you were being sarcastic to the staff. They are presumably there (whether they should be *there* and not on the train is another issue) to see whether people have tickets. You didn't.

As much as you disliked their attitude, there's a bigger issue. Are they there to *judge* people? Somebody with crappy clothes and 'attitude' could be just as innocent.

The whole staff attitude and role issue should be IMO dealt with in a letter of complaint to the supervisory body.

This is the first time I have heard of a ticket inspection after you have got off the train.Thanks for the info tho as I travel by train so I shall hang on to all tickets until I get home in future.

>>Like it or not, you were being sarcastic to the staff.<<

I still think intent matters. I can hand on heart say the parting shot was not intended as sarcastic and glib. I was (as an innocent, inadvertently ensnared) wishing them luck in the pursuit of those they deserved to catch (by definition not me, in spite of the lack of evidence on my side to back this up).

How that gets misconstrued as sarcasm defeats me.

On platform inspections do happen - they are usually preceded by an announcement on the train (i.e at Leeds - please retain your tickets as a barrier is in force upon exit, or words to that effect.

Conspicuously, there was no such announcement on my train that afternoon (had there of been I wouldn't have thrown the blasted tickets away!)

I'm no legal expert, but the word "mitigation" seems to me to imply guilt.

I think 3Dots CAB suggestion is a good one. But it seems to me that a letter outlining what happened and with a copy of your bank statement proving the transaction should be sufficient.

It's also worth reading the National Rail Conditions of Carriage
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/

These state that:

"You may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if:
....
(d) you are present in a Compulsory Ticket Area without a ticket or Permit to Travel."

That's *may*, not *will*. It ought to be possible to make a strong case that the Penalty Fare should not apply in your case because you are able to provide alternative proof of payment, and that their records should also contain proof. If you're feeling stroppy, you could even complain that they should be looking to their own records for evidence before even considering bringing a prosecution.

I think in general, be extremely polite, reference formal conditions of carriage, probably accept that you should not have discarded your ticket and that you will not be repeating that mistake. And give the impression that prosecution is going to be far, far, far more trouble than it's worth. And that it will be a waste of their time and money.

But mostly.... CAB...

>> grumpy people work in stations.

Or working in stations makes people grumpy.

Many (most?) mainline stations collect tickets on exit. Leeds for example has recently upgraded from doing so manually to using automatic barriers. I admit, I would never dispose of a ticket until after I'd left the station.

B

Thanks Otto - I'll read through the NRCOC now.

Hmmm..


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Found this under "D your Responsibilities."

D. YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES

[...]

22. Inspection of tickets
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent,
hand over for inspection a valid ticket and any relevant Railcard, photocard or
other form of personal identification in accordance with Condition 15. If you do
not, you will be treated as having joined a train without a ticket and the relevant
parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If an Electronic Ticket cannot be displayed,
you will be treated as if you were unable to hand over for inspection a valid ticket.


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It's the second sentence that's relevant, I suspect.