h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I really wish President Bush would stop couching this in terms of good vs. evil. It sounds so campy when he keeps repeating it like that.

I don't really believe in evil. There's one exception, but I won't post it here though.

I'm noticing that Bush isn't a real subtle man. The phrases he keeps using are meant to be sincere, but to a hostile audience that already has some preconceptions, it's going to sound like propaganda.

And whatever happened to the separation between church and state? He keeps saying "God bless America" at the end of his speeches, and personally, when non-Christians hear that, it's just going to reinforce the impression that Christianity is out to get them.

I don't think he ever said "May the Christian God Bless America". Presidents have said in the past that the people of American should pray to their God, whoever that may be. On September 11th, he said part of the Lord's Prayer, but he used the excerpt "Even though I walk through the shadow of death, I will fear no evil". This was simply used to comfort, and it was to be used as a saying more than anything to the general public. Just like when the ten commandments are put in court houses. The ten commandments say good things like "thou shalt not kill". I don't think any good citizen can argue with most of the ten commandments.

By the way, it does not say in our constitution that there is to be a seperation of church and state. That's in the declaration of independence, which is not legally binding.

I agree with posting 469

Granted. But I firmly believe that every time we sing God Bless America, or say it, that it only reinforces the fears that this really is a religious war, and not a war against terrorism.

Terrorism does NOT equal the Muslim faith. Bin Laden wants people to believe that it does, though - he's called on all true Muslim believers to kill all Americans. The Muslim community should be condemming him for his abuse of religion for his own means. Which is why I want to avoid all religious connotations over here in the Untied Snakes - I want the focus of this war on the individuals, rather than the religion the individuals believe in.

We have the same rules on extradition in Denmatk TBTP Moron

Two bit,

Bush saying good versus evil all the time is just quoting his father.

The only reason i know this is because it was sampled on a Ministry song called New World Order.

Not too sure about our extgradition laws but as far as i know the crime would have to be committed on American soil. I have never heard any mention of the death penalty but that may be because it has never come up before.

Little nit-pick:

Goens001 wrote, "On September 11th, [Bush] said part of the Lord's Prayer, but he used the excerpt 'Even though I walk through the shadow of death, I will fear no evil'."

That's not from the Lord's prayer, it's from Psalm 23, part of the Old Testament. Not that a Judeo-Christian document is likely to resonate more strongly with Muslims than a purely Christian one. Bush should be quoting the Quran. There must be some good peace quotes in there, eh?



The real fight right now is the PR battle for the hearts and minds of the world's Muslims. Bin-Laden says he's their best friends, Bush says he is. Neither is very convincing right now. The US needs to seriously consider why it is so easy for certain Muslims to believe that America is their enemy. Part of it is just scape-goating, I'm sure, but the other part has a grain of truth to it.

If the US wins *that* fight, and if Islam, as a whole, rejects Bin-Laden like a bad liver, then his primary objective (World War - Islam vs. West) will be unattainable. Currently, every bomb that drops on Afghanistan makes more Muslims suspect that Bin-Laden may have a point. That's something we really can't afford, IMHO.

Sorry, yeah i know it's psalm 23, i misspoke...i've been studying The Lord's Prayer for rhetoric and society and had it on my mind...also, i misquoted...i forgot the valley..."even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, i will fear no evil, for You are with me"...by david...and bush quoting the koran will only make them angry since he is not a muslim...at least when he quotes the bible he is quoting his own religion...by the way, he did bring up the koran in his state of the union address when he told us the rules of a jihad and brought up the fact that in a jihad no women or children were to be killed...no buildings are to be disturbed...no unarmed men are to be killed, and no leaf from any tree that is still alive can be disturbed...some of this could have come from the discovery channel"why do they hate us" not sure since i've been media blitzed since sep 11.

"But I firmly believe that every time we sing God Bless America, or say it, that it only reinforces the fears that this really is a religious war, and not a war against terrorism. "

God bless America is a patriotic song. And yeah it's referring to the Christian God. This country was based on freedom of religion, meaning freedom to be Catholic or Protestant. Since then it has become a nation that accepts ALL FAITHS. Saying that God Bless America is a religious song is like saying the rebel flag is a flag for slavery even though it's just a battle flag that the confedracy used for the civil war. Messages get mixed up. God Bless America is a song about earlier times when we feared for our freedom. African Americans sing "We shall overcome" when a lot of them are muslim. It's a message that crosses religious boundaries. What about "God Bless the Queen?"

I recently posted this in another forum...tell me what you think.

"It requires a generation of kids growing up and being educated not to hate. "

This brings up a very intersting point. How are we going to help educate the people of Afghanistan, in particular. Or, how are Afghans going to educate their children. Right now, children are taken away from their mothers at a very young age to be taught in muslim schools of an extreme nature, where they are taught to think women are completely useless and that the west is evil, among other things. They aren't taught the things like math, geography, etc in their schools. And the kids who do go to school are ALL male. Females are not allowed to go to the doctor, much less go to school.

One of the many things that bother me about this whole situation is that boys are taken from their mothers at a very young age and then taught to hate women. They are never shown a woman's love. What is this doing to their psyche? I think this is going to breed a new generation of militants who do not realize the power of love and the value of life.

Another thing that should be brought up is the link between education and violence. Statistics have shown that virtually all violent crimes are performed by very uneducated people. This is a problem we have in America with the poor who have no education and commit hate crimes, robbery, and have illegitimate children. This breeds more crime since again, most violent crime is committed by illegitimate children! This is a problem we have been trying to rememdy in the black community for years. And it's working. The NAACP and other groups have recognized the need for education. Colin Powell has said time and time again that in order for the black community to progress and to get "out of the slums", education is the key. The same goes for Afghanistan. The problem? How in the world is anyone going to educate the Afghan children when the adults are not educated? There is no economy and no money to pay teachers (besides the ones who teach the Koran). One solution is that Americans and other members of the coalition go into Afghanistan after the war, and teach their children. However, what are muslims going to say about westerners teaching their children? I think the term "brainwashing" would come up over and over, even though this may not be the case.

Lentilla - you've only just noticed Bush isn't subtle! Haven't you seen that "Who's the president of Pakistan" / "I don't know, that guy with the hat" interview???

The God Bless America is nausiating and possibly inflammitory. I use to like it when Dave Allen used to end his shows with "Goodnight, and may your god go with you". Your God.

As for the ten commandments Goens i think that a lot of people would have a problem with the one about one acknowlegding the Christian god.

And it's God Save the Queen, and most British hate the thing, it's an archaic celebration of monarchy which dafames the Irish and the Scots, and personally i wish the Queen, God and our ever eager Mr Blair would disappear up their own a***holes.

> "The Muslim community should be condemning [Bin Laden] for his abuse of religion for his own means."

I thought they were already doing just that - didn't the conference of islamic states say exactly that a couple days ago?

>>being educated not to hate/How are we going to help educate the people of Afghanistan<<

By this you infer that the Afgans hate someone - who, the Afgans are just looking to get by from day to day, to survive and care for each other - they don't even know you exist. If there's any hatred in Afganistan its of the Soviets who are blamed for starting this whole thing with the 1979-1987 occupation.

>>and that the west is evil<<

Firstly they're not taught that. Secondly, if you believe in a concept like evil, then the West is.

>>taught to hate women<<

I agree here to an extent, but the West teaches mysogeny just as effectively by making women fullfil a subserviant role during their childhood.
The influence of a country like Pakistan might be a good one here where women get very good educational and carrer opportunities, providing their families can afford to educted their children at all.

And here we have the crux, until we start letting these countries profit from their own resorses instead of keeping the under the yolk of the multinationals they will stay poor, and as long as a country is poor, it will be easily manipulated by despots. Usually US backed despots. The west has to stop exploiting the poorer countries and 'underdeveloping' the third world. We have to loose those profits that line the pockets of the fat cats in big business, and exploit us into the bargain, and let the money go to those whose capital it is in the first place.

Then and only then can the people become strong, then and only then can the people become educated, then and only then can they speak for themselves.

> "We can't just look at an organization and say they're terrorists."

Don't look now, but isn't that exactly what you just did with regards to cutting off terrorist funding...

>>and that the west is evil<<

Firstly they're not taught that. Secondly, if you believe in a concept like evil, then the West is.

The first statement you made is ludicrous. You don't think the Taliban has taught the children of Afghanistan to hate western influence? Ok, that's why they aren't allowed to have modern conveniences, not even a tv. And before you go off saying "why do people have to have a tv" I'll just say that the Taliban is doing this in the name of absolute religion, but what they are really trying to do is isolate the people so that they don't see that they are missing out on things. And before you say "why are they missing out" it's not up to you to decide, it's up to the individual, and they are not given the chance. Second, where did you hear that they are not taught that? A woman from afghanistan was on the discovery channel and on cnn saying just that...that young girls are not allowed to go to school and that the young boys are sent to Taliban schools where they learn fundamentalist islamic stuff, and they are definitely taught to hate America simply because the Taliban hates America. The only way a stupid organization like the Taliban can stay in control of people is to isolate them from the world and create propaganda so that they fear and hate the outside world. If you don't believe this, I think you have your head under a rock.

>>taught to hate women<<

"I agree here to an extent, but the West teaches mysogeny just as effectively by making women fullfil a subserviant role during their childhood."

What are you talking about???? First of all, are you a woman, and second of all, are you from the US? I'm both of these, and I have no idea what you are talking about. What did your parents do to you or your sisters?? I think maybe this is a personal problem that your parents have inflicted upon you personally. My parents have never made me feel I had to fill a subservient role. I mean, I may have been punished when I told my dad to do his own dishes once or twice, but this was an every day chore thing, not a lesson in being inferior. Maybe you need family counseling. Talk to your parents. Jesus, for real.

And by the way, the people of Afghanistan are not allowed to speak for themselves. They live in one of the poorest countries in the world, with an economy that is practically bankrupt, and their "government" is the most oppresive in the entire world. They have recently reveived bribes from osama bin laden in the form of $100,000,000. I'm not sure if that's US dollars or Afghan money. The fact that you defend these people makes you a psycho, possibly extending from your tyrannical parents who oppress women in childhood.

I was trying to agree in essence with what you said,

The Taleban are not in control of Afganistan, they do not run the schools and poison the minds of every child, they run a few very shoddy peices of infrastructure and enfore their laws in a very brutal fashion, yes people pay lip service to it, but they aren't teaching kids to hate they're teaching them to be muslims.

The point you made about taking kids away from their mothers was well made, i'm just saying that mysogeny is firmly rooted in all cultures and most religions much more so Christianity than Islam.

As for not alowing TV's - there is and never has been a tv station in Afganistan, and almost no-one could afford a tv if there was. There's only one TV broacast ariel (or was - now destroyed). There isn't even a national radio station, the only station that broadcasts accross the whole country is the BBC Pushtoo service, which broadcasts impartially and without hinderance.

There are lots of reasons to hate this dispicable regime, you don't need to invent new ones, and if you do make false charges, or come on holier than thou, you end up discrediting the legitimate greavences.

O'm of on holiday now. I'll respond in a couple of days. See Ya.

American citizens aided and abetted terrorists. It's that simple.

If Americans are funding terrorists (and I have no doubt that there are people in the UK doing the exact same thing) how can we declare war on terrorism? How can we stand up and face the world, knowing that our moral stance is essentially hypocritical? How can we then go on to justify any kind of collateral damage?

My point was that you cannot fight a terrorist by taking conventional military action. It doesn't work. It never works.
The Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden on the grounds that they had seen no evidence that he was responsible for Sept 11th. To date, I haven't seen any either. (Can anyone out there point me in the right direction? I know there must be some...). The Taliban also know that by standing up to a technologically, economically, militarily superior foe they will garner sympathy from the rest of the Islamic world every time America and her allies do something to them.
Every civilian Coalition bombs kill is a propoganda victory for them. Every child that starves to death while the Coalition engages in military action is a propoganda victory because Afganistan is no longer safe for the Aid agencies that pulled out of the country. You can't win hearts and minds by dropping food in the same night that you drop bombs.
Osama Bin Laden is not intending to build an Islamic empire; Muslims the world over would cringe to hear that. For a start, Islam is (and I don't know how many times this has to be said) a peaceful and tolerant religion. The Taliban and Bin Laden are everything a good Muslim is not. In fact, the Taliban are closer in temprament and tolerance to a certain European political movement that flourished between 1930 and 1945...
...whichever way you look at it, killing people is wrong and solves nothing at all.

One word: Noraid.

'evidence':
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1581000/1581063.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1579000/1579043.stm

It's mainly circumstantial and hearsay, as far as I can tell.