h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I don't object to the smiley, I'm just sure you are intelligent enough to find a suitable adjective/verb/noun to replace it that will have much more impact and that conforms to the official rules of what can and cannot be said.

You're right about earning trust, but I have seen no reason not to trust the Italics, I read a little of the ACEs Code of Conduct thread and found it childish, frankly, most of the time it was going round in circles and the rest of the time it was just being used to have a go at people right left and centre. I agree that sometimes the volunteers on h2g2 can get a little enthusiastic (mob like even) and that they do tend to stick together, however I hope that they have learnt from their mistakes about how to treat these cases. How many volunteers do you see jumping on the band wagon of this case? Just me, though I am trying my best to be impartial and am here more as a mediator than a Mob Member.

If you have a link to these so called 'unofficial' rules I would be interested to see them, I have not as yet stumbled across them.

Higher up the ladder could be the staff or someone higher in the BBC, though I suggest that you consider seriously the implications before starting any official complaints like that. Not only for the staff but for the DNA sites as a whole. It would be better for everyone if problems were sorted out at ground level.
I feel that the staff are understanding enough that if you present your case in a clear and concise manner without using s they will be able to sort out things that you consider a problem. Emails that contain confrontational material will always put people on the defensive and cannot be expected to get the desired effects. Well that's my on that issue anyway! You may call me naive but I've found that solution has worked well for me over the years.

Mel

E G Mel,

I mistook you for a bloke, my appologies
You can find a link to the unofficial house rules on this page i think, havent looked at them recently........


Researcher A129960
Lucinda (et al) - Dun Researchin'
(hope ive done that right)!

I have to go, but ill reply to your post later

First of all, thanks to Mel for shedding some light on things.

As we announced back in September when the team moved from seven to two, we wouldn't be able to be exactly omnipresent on the site and in any case, since this is a reactively-moderated site we rely on others to Yikes postings they find offensive. When that happens we can deal with things through the appropriate channels. The posting in question was complained about, then it was removed and if there were any emails of complaint about the issue they were replied to.

>Please dont, even if you say it with all good intention bother telling me to contact h2 support, there is more >chance of getting 6 numbers on the lotto than getting a reply from them! Higher up the ladder? Like who? >>staff?

IV: Thank you for your constructive feedback. It's not h2g2 Support it's h2g2 Feedback - h2g2 Support is for people witnessing technical problems but to my knowledge there haven't been any emails sent there in error. I'm not at liberty to explain moderation decisions so the same advice to all remains: Reply to the moderation emails if you're still not happy.

The other issues you refer to occurred months ago when we were both struggling to cope with massive changes at the same time as we witnessed a technical problem involving the internal email addresses. It might not be a bad idea if we all moved on from this but if it's still causing you distress please do email us. We will deal with any emails sent to us as quickly as we can, but would be grateful if you could bear in mind the multitude of other pressures on us.

Regarding the questions about the transgressions procedure, we will continue to activate it whenever we think it's necessary. However, I must stress that from the site alone you do not always see the full picture and we have to bear in mind practical and internal considerations. Still, again - we continue to depend on people using the moderation process.

Good luck in Wednesday night's draw.

Natalie

Cheers Natalie that does shed some light on the subject thanks for keeping us posted

Allthough saying that, if I was in charge then I reckon a death threatr does warrant the transgression procedure matter but still each to his own eh?

Hello Ferrettbadger,

We try to act as fairly as possible via the moderation system. If a posting is Yikesed and breaks the House Rules, we will uphold the decision and remove the post, as we did on this occasion.

As stated, I cannot explain exactly what actions are taken regarding specific moderation decisions but the Transgressions Procedure is activated after a Researcher has received official warnings following repeated breaking of the House Rules. If, during the course of this process, we find something we believe is a genuine threat, we will obviously act accordingly. We may have more than the on-site posting to help us judge this.

If we judged that there was real intent behind a posting of this type then that would be a matter that went far beyond any h2g2 moderation measures and would involve investigations by external parties. We would ask all Researchers, however enraged they feel, to please think very carefully before they post.

Natalie

No problem

Hi Natalie,
By way of reply and in contravention of members most solemn caveat( that everyone adhered to) ,I'd like to post an example of my experience with della.

I too have taken exception to what della has posted. For example,some time ago we argued on the god thread. I admit that I posted too pre-emptorily to a reply of hers. From there hostilities were fairly quickly announced and engaged, though I did, as many others have done, attempt to converse with her. After getting nowhere, I said we should just drop it and move on. I did. della continued to make reference to me and our argument over a number of posts. She would not let it go and she mis-represented the episode in her favour, attempting to appear as the "martyred, hard done by, offended one".

This is not at all an unusual stance for della to take. A quick glance at some of the conversations she has been involved in, post "death threat", will easily show how she deals with unpleasent realities. Since she realised that her own son was the cause of the whole disgusting incident, she has begun to lay her foundations of innocence.

Her worry is that she might be banned from the site. Her answer, is to meekly enter into gentler areas of discussions. It is only when prompted by an unsuspecting researcher do her true colours leech out and she obliquely refers to how confused she is, to, how is it that she has been so badly treated?

Amazingly della continues to post that she has no idea how events have conspired to paint her in such a bad light. She continually ignores calls from well meaning researchers to apologise. She then gains from her unsuspecting confidante a measure of sympathy.

To directly address your posts. What has happened with Della is that she (and her children) has posted a number of offensive posts. However the tolerant Hootoo community have not yikesed them at anywhere near the frequency they deserve , attempting rather to engage her in dialogue. Hence she has only a small record, not at all indicative of the offense she has caused. This is an indictment of the generosity of spirit exhibited by the majority of researchers. There have been numerous times where she has been given the benefit of the doubt,only for her to show her unwillingness to offer the same and for her to continue her vitriol .

And this is perhaps the most amazing thing. All that has been really asked of della over a number of issues, over months of posts , is for her to post a real , moving and honest apology. She has proved INCAPABLE of doing this most basic of empathic and interactive human funtions.

Even now I would venture that if she did apologise, wholeheartedly, for the real hurt she has inflicted over the stupid impersonation by her son, that she would be accepted back into the community again. However she cannot see that. Her folly is to assume that others judge her in the same narrow minded way that she judges them. She deserves it to be so, but, there are much kinder people in the world than her.

Perhaps the answer lies in having the weight of expectation, to exhibit behaviour that reflects the kindness and compassion that she has been shown, being thrust upon her. And for that she needs to be involved in the cut and thrust of impassioned discussion on various ( and sometimes heated ) threads. It is for you to decide if she deserves the chance.

Peckish

Just popping in to reply to this comment from IV:

>> I could also point out i was told that that particular thread would be 'looked into' by Jim no less, in february but as yet I see no evidence of it, another lie to shut us up?! <<

In January, we read through that very long thread - as promised. As any Ace will tell you, we then fed back our findings and acknowledged problems that had been highlighted in that thread and elsewhere. Both Natalie and myself have been finding our feet dealing with some of the volunteer groups that had previously been under the wings of other people, and as explained at the time, our priorities were to get the volunteer groups for the Edited Guide into shape first before looking at other groups. That done, we turned our attentions to the Aces. We were determined from the start not to wade in and start changing things without consulting *both* sides. The Aces also expresed concerns over the way the scheme had been running, which we also took on board. As there was no actual change to the Aces' Code of Conduct, we didn't feel it necessary to report this on site; the findings were more to do with the application of the rules than the rules themselves, as you yourself had pointed out. We're now in a much better position - thanks in part to your thread - to see the strengths and weaknesses of the scheme.

One area that we did wish to revise was this idea of the Aces being an unofficial police force. One thing we need to stress is that we see it as the responsibility of *all* h2g2 Researchers, not just Aces, to look after the interests of the site.

We also went back and identified the emails that you had drawn our attention to - three very long mails about the Aces, the bulk of which had since been repeated on the Aces Code of Conduct thread. What appears to have happened is that an acknowledgement of receipt was not sent to you, as the email went straight to the Moderation folder rather than through the proper complaints procedure. It therefore bypassed the Moderators completely. However, we had by this point already acknowledged your complaints on the onsite thread.

I should note here that just because we don't make a special announcement about matters doesn't alway imply that we're not doing something about them. As Natalie stated, in some cases it's simply not appropriate to discuss issues in an open forum. ther matters may have to be passed to other people within the BBC, and in those cases we try to be clear if we're unable to give an answer straight away - as we repeatedly stressed during the Aces Code of Conduct thread.

A number of changes have taken place in the last few months in the way we deal with certain situations. A lot of consultation has gone on with other DNA sites and with BBC Community heads generally, and we're much happier with the way h2g2 sits within overall BBC moderation now. The Reactive pilot has been deemed a success and is currently in the process of being rolled out across other BBC sites, something the h2g2 Community should be rightly proud of. But the system still relies on people using the complaints procedure, rather than hoping that we might chance upon a thread, like this one.

Jimster

About the death threat.

That was made by me. I had got so angry at something I thought that blickybadger was responsible for, that all my self-control disappeared. What I said was if I ever get my hands on him... It was something said in the heat of the moment, and the only reason it was in a posting made by Della was because she was logged in at the time, and posted what I said.

Now that I know that blickybadger was not responsible for the thing that I was so angry about, I apologise for making the threat.

I never actually intended to carry out the threat. It was said in the heat of the moment, and after a moment I calmed down. Anyway, it was never (and still isn't) physically possible for me or anyone I know to bring about the death of blickybadger.

And for the record, the reason I stayed away was because I have an important history assignment to finish, and actually still do, not at all because I knew I had done something wrong. See ya.

And the bit at the end of my nickname is about the murder of Sheikh Yassin, not anyone here.

hi Maths Wizard,

The wording of the death threat refers to you by name, as though someone else were writing it.

az

Maths Wizard, thanks for the public apology, I understand that sometimes it can be difficult to keep one's temper and next time you find something that makes you feel that way I suggest you take some time out to calm down before you post. h2g2 is not a place for flying off the handle but for enjoying what is on offer, whether that be discussions, clubs, writing or reading.

for your history assignment.


IV - I've had a quick look at the UnOfficial rules, many of them now need updating as the site has changed a lot in the past 2 years but they do add a certain amount of clarification to some issues. I take it there have been no offers to update them over the past years. I think it would be a difficult task to try as they require a certain level of impartiality, something which many people (myself included) do not have on these issues

"I mistook you for a bloke, my appologies"
What gave it away in the end Apology accepted (not that I was really bothered by it, it's one of the pitfalls of online communication)

Nathalie & Jimster.

I think I may have given a couple of people the support address in place of the feedback one but as you say they both get checked and now I know better

I think the nail was hit on the head with the idea that the Yikes button should be used when something is considered inappropriate for h2g2. If you don't yikes it then it is unlikely TPTB will see it.

Also if a researcher has many posts yikesed and the complaints are upheld there is more chance that questions will be asked sooner than if it is left until threads are started which often contain nothing better than a flame war.

If the Italics can see that someone has been upsetting the researchers and has had a stream of inappropriate posts yikesed they can have words before it gets to the stage where this sort of thing happens. When situations like this are left to fester the Italics are called in towards the end and have to wade through the backlog to try and find the cause of the whole affair. This in turn takes up more time which takes away from the other purpose of their job which is to keep h2g2 ticking over in an apparently smooth manner (I do believe the swan analogy is good, it moves gracefully across the pond but underneath its flippers are paddling away like mad ).

As to the point that Jimster made about having done something but not informing the community as such. I see this as slightly problematic, even if you haven't made any changes to the code of conduct if you have addressed the problems at all I feel it is something that should be announced, even if it is only in a post off a relevant page.

Transparancy and communication in this form can only be a good thing, it allows people outside of the circle to see that points are taken on board and opinions are listened to. Admitedly there are some discussions that are probably best held off site but that doesn't mean that the outcomes, however minor they may be, should be left to circulate as rumours. It is always better to hear these things from the horse's mouth than to have them filter down through the volunteer groups or other researchers.

Mel

P.S I have re-written this many times today as each person adds their own post, I have been finding work gets in the way you see! Hopefully it will still be semi-coherant

Exactly how long is a moment in NZ?

Obviously it is long enough to post on other threads similar unfriendly posts to two other people, OK they were'nt death threats. Maybe that's what counts as calming down there, posting violent offensive nonsense that stops just short of death threats.

Maths dont worry about the death threat, which has evaporated now we KNOW it was your foolish brother, how about an apology for jumping to the conclusion and posting that it was me who had done what your brother did in the first place?

one love

Hello all,

Thanks again to Mel for explaining everything so clearly, and for reminding us italics that we should try and make sure that we keep the Community informed of any changes. As Jim explained, the period around the Aces Code of Conduct thread was especially hectic and it's not always easy for us to anticipate how far relatively minor changes will impact the Community. All I can say is that we realise this and that we try our best. (Also, no problem with the h2g2 Support email address either - we will of course reply to all).

Peckish: All we can really do is respond to posts that come through the moderation system as we receive them. We would ask that, instead of drawing attention to behaviour in a thread such as this (since it is not actually possible for us to keep track of them all) you would Yikes any posts you find offensive. However much anyone tries to provide a context for one post among a background of anti-social behaviour in a thread we can only ever act on what the moderation system has logged.

In the virtual world, as in life, we will all come across people that we simply don't gel with, no matter how hard we try. On those occasions it's often best to draw a line under things and focus on putting our energies into positive interaction with other people instead.

Natalie

Delurk.
Call me silly
call me stupid
moderration,premoderation,postmoderatin.
identities often hidden before after and dureing the act.

stupid silly me ,thinks if the name of the poster is shown, or as in some cases his reincarnated and all linking accounts, as in case of (italics/aces/staff) whom i understand are able to acess more than one oneline identitie, more so the pre petunia/rupert
or Good old days,perhaps it would deter the "few" posts after that tend to incite others to respond to infered "suggestions".

"However much anyone tries to provide a context for one post among a background of anti-social behaviour in a thread we can only ever act on what the moderation system has logged."

I hope you realise that this is basically telling us that we're not using the moderation system anywhere near often enough.

If you *want* us to yikes a LOT more postings - OK.

This site is like a reptile house in a zoo.
God help humanity!

What?

"I hope you realise that this is basically telling us that we're not using the moderation system anywhere near often enough."

IMHO if you see something you find offensive you should yikes it. If this means there are more posts Yikesed then so be it. Maybe it will make people think more about how they construct posts and approach situations.

I am all for accountability but I don't feel it should be trial by media which is what effectively happens when offensive posts are left. Someone will go round spouting "look at what so-and-so said, aren't they nasty/ignorant/arrogant" and this then drags in many people who have no prior knowledge of the situation and it becomes a case of whoever shouts the loudest wins. If you feel a researcher is bad enough to 'warn' people about, then how about telling the people who can make a difference rather than character bashing them at every given chance?

Maybe this is just because of my opinion that I am capable of making my own decisions about who I liase with on h2g2 without someone interrupting to tell me they're a liar/idiot/meany, or maybe it's because I like to give people a chance without going on what others have said.

Superrouter-Why don't you activate your page, after that you will receive a message from an ACE with helpful tips on how to find some of the nicer areas of this site. Don't write a site off after only 2 posts. Every community has it's rougher edges and this conversation however badly it may have started out is now being used to work out how to improve the situation so that these things don't happen again