A Conversation for LIL'S ATELIER

84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 81

Asteroid Lil - Offstage Presence

smiley - applause

To carry Amy's analogy further, when I taught adult education classes, I was dismayed to discover that mastering content was considered by some students to be incidental. What mattered was completing the exercises, even if that involved intensive coaching by the instructor, coaching which was clearly discarded because the student was a blank slate in the next lesson. Thus, the student felt entitled to claim credit for reaching the sign even though they rode on the teacher's back.

The curriculum was one of those extremely structured things where the content was broken into sections, each with a list of tasks which were worth a certain number of credit hours. The number of credit hours varied from program to program; data entry might be worth, say, 800 hours. There were tasks with descriptions like (and I am not making this up) "Recognize telephone equipment." The students could perform the tasks in any order, at their own speed.

This came to a head when two such back-riding students wanted to graduate. I knew they didn't have the comeptence to go out and get a job with what they had (not) learned, and insisted on further work. They went to the evening class supervisor and pulled the race card -- despite the fact that I had students of their race who were diligent and intelligent, who ~were~ getting the credits from me. The supervisor backed the students and insisted that I sign them off as graduates.

And they were back several months later, complaining that they couldn't get a job and that this was the school's fault.


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 82

David B - Singing Librarian Owl

Nothing wrong with signposts, terrain maps and being on hand with a blister repair kit. smiley - ok What I object to is those students that seem to want a clearly marked route (preferably in flourescent ink, a free supply of Kendall Mint Cake and someone to carry their rucksack for them. And sometimes get it! Or am I taking the analogy too far...

The library equivalent is the student that comes in and wants to know the information and wants us to give it to him/her in exactly the form they need. What is more helpful to them in the long run is for us to show them how to find the information they need - the best places to start looking and how to use the appropriate tools (the instructions for how to use the metal detector and how to select likely sites to use it in, rather than a pre-dug hole with the treasure peeking out of the bottom). We tend to meet half-way and show them where to find the information rather than how to find it. If we wanted an easy job, we'd just hand them the information, but in my view, we'd be failing the students if we didn't at least try to give them the skills they need.

Hmm, I'm reminded of the charity adverts - give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him how to fish and he eats for a lifetime...

I also apologise if elements of ranting are creeping in as well. There are big changes afoot at the smiley - drumroll Library of Doom, and I'm not entirely sure if I'm going to fit in there at the end of the process. smiley - sadface


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 83

Agapanthus

We have a lot of students who are singularly unimpressed when we tell them things like 'The journals are upstairs; they are arranged in alphabetical order by title,' or 'if you check on the catalogue, you'll be able to see how many copies we have and if any are in the library at the moment.' They seem to think that if they are paying to come to Uni then the degree should be painlessly and instantly inserted like a pet's microchip - now they are 'scannable' and can spend the rest of the three years bonking and boozing. They seem downright offended that they should pay fees and STILL have to work away at their subject.

On the other hand, we have a lot of students who work very hard indeed and love learning (for these guys I would do just about anything legal. I would jump through hoops backwards whistling the Star Spangled Banner. They are the icing on the job cake, AND the cake too).

And what hurts me here *presses her hand theatrically to her solar plexus* is that more and more courses and teachers are being geared to group A, the intellectual equivalent of force-fed, reluctant, and pointless if not force-fed, foie gras geese that they are, rather than the prime organic freerangers I love so dearly.

Of course, in Amy's case, her little geese are not even being force-fed rich golden grain, are they? She's being asked to force-feed them something that will make them inedible.

Not that I'm saying that Amy's force-feeding. I'm sure she is scattering grain before them like a good'un. But in the current academic climate, those of us with good intentions are looked apon deeply askance...

And now my dinner is getting cold and I am sure I am rambling, and probably misrepresenting myself at that.


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 84

Afgncaap5

[Affy]


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 85

David B - Singing Librarian Owl

*feels obliged to point out that he has some 'icing on the cake' students as well*


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 86

Afgncaap5

Well, just got an eMail from the person that my professor and I are talking to trying to keep the police out of the picture. She understands our concern, but is confident that nothing'll happen beyond initial police investigations.

Just like I was confident that I couldn't be seen as guilty, and just like the professor was confident that police wouldn't be involved...I'm going to wind up on trial before the United Nations before this is through, I can feel it now.


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 87

Good Doctor Zomnker (This must be Tuesday," said GDZ to himself, sinking low over his Dr. Pepper, "I never could get the hang of Tuesdays.")

"I'm going to wind up on trial before the United Nations before this is through, I can feel it now."

I would say something regarding that statement but, saying those sorts of things has been a bit of a jinx recently.

Six hours since I woke up this morning and it doesn't seem like I have accomplished much today and yet, I've done quite a bit: 1 paper written, a bicycle fixed, grocery shopping done, and some of my math homework done.


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 88

Teuchter

You'll be safe from international involvement, Affy - just as long as they don't suspect you of harbouring weapons of maths instruction smiley - groan


I'm sorry - couldn't resist that one.

I really do sympathise with your plight smiley - cuddle
It seems they're making a mountain out of a molehill - and to put you through this for months on end is hardly constructive.

I've been following the discussion on education - but have little to contribute, since it involves matters beyond my ken.
Happy to read and learn though.


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 89

Agapanthus

Blimey, Affy. Dare I mention Kafka?

I have my fingers crossed for you.


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 90

Bagpuss

smiley - tea for Affy.

I'm wondering what sort of a student I was. I don't think I ever needed carrying, but I certainly liked to be lead around new territory until I'd got to know it. I suppose my thesis involved a little pioneering, though.

I've decided I am giving up alcohol for Lent. I've never really given up anything before (one year I did give up broccoli, but I'm not sure that counts), but I thought if I was going to it should be something major.


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 91

David B - Singing Librarian Owl

I think Affy's situation justifies the use of the new smiley - rolleyes smiley. Ag is quite right to bring Kafka up. Grr.


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 92

Asteroid Lil - Offstage Presence

My reaction to what Affy is going through remains the same. I want to pick up the entire Honor Council by its collective lapels and shout, "Don't you KNOW this fellow?!"


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 93

Hypatia

[Hyp]


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 94

Blue-Eyed BiPedal BookWorm from Betelgeuse (aka B4[insertpunhere])

smiley - erm
[-B4-]

Lil, 0000=======smiley - star ?

***mutters to himself***
Why can't I seem to keep up with these folks? Blinders on? Some kind of social interaction scotoma? No computer with wireless internet capability chained to my wrist? Who knows!
smiley - erm
B4iuse1oftheSpring2006smileyslike
smiley - lurk


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 95

Good Doctor Zomnker (This must be Tuesday," said GDZ to himself, sinking low over his Dr. Pepper, "I never could get the hang of Tuesdays.")

[GDZ]


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 96

FG

[fg]


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 97

Afgncaap5

To be fair, Lil, do *you* know me either?smiley - winkeye If I've lied well enough over time, I could be different in nearly every regard that I've mentioned to you over time. Heck, even this honor council thing could just be an attempt of mine to monopolize conversation by inventing a "Woe is me" story. smiley - fish

On a positive note, this whole story is sounding a lot like the origin of my favorite Batman villain, the Riddler.smiley - cool


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 98

Good Doctor Zomnker (This must be Tuesday," said GDZ to himself, sinking low over his Dr. Pepper, "I never could get the hang of Tuesdays.")

With Gw7en's help, I have chosen a design for my first tattoo. It is a trinity knot with my kids' names inside of it. Now I just have to gather some spendable money together to get it done. I figure it'll be 1 to 2 months before it is done.


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 99

Asteroid Lil - Offstage Presence

Affy, you can't lie when you're questing. smiley - silly That's when your true character really manifests itself. I know you are intensively omitful about your identity, but if I had to be in a room with you and eleven other strangers over a period of time, and conversation occurred, I know I'd spot you. smiley - smiley A sort of Affi Turing test.


84Xth Conversation at Lil's

Post 100

Afgncaap5

You could know my personality, Lil...but the facts of actual identity beyond that are still up for grabs.

I'm actually thinking about training four or five friends to act like me and to come down to the July 4th meet.


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