h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"if you stay on their side when they're swinging about, you might get collateral d*ckage."



On a less pleasant note, wonder how this story is going to play out...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030316/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_protester_killed_6

it was just there on my computer when I opened it up, and I can't seem to find anything else on it.

Flawless timing for WWIII, seems to me.

Well there'll be some who WILL argue about the air type war being succesful aka Kosovo. I believe in that one we were just plain lucky that Milosovic blinked first, because had it gone the full distance I reckon the Serbs would've given as good as they got! In a straight fight that is. Happily for all concerned it went the way it did but...don't forget there's still alot of players out there, who still have scores to settle like the recent assassination of the Prime Minister. Remember too that there were a number of high flying "accidents" as well. But the hair raising stories of mass graves in Kosovo have been largely disproved, but it was good media publicity to help those NATO waverers to keep on bombing and for sure in Iraq we'll get plenty of that too!

That's a great story to illustrate that pacifism and intervention are not mutually exclusive terms. There is a growing ignorance that suggests that being anti-war is being anti-interventionist. There is intervention, and intevention. One kind doesn't rely on bringing your own weapons along...
A tragic tale - let's hope the young woman's death highlights the wicked injustice and hypocracy that goes on with America's support. There is more than one nasty piece of work having his way in the desert - only difference is one admits to owning WMD.

Just a quick note to dear old zagreb about the truth of reporting restrictions in the Gulf - a couple of weeks ago, the Grauniad (yeah, I know, Mail readers like yourself spit on it Zagreb, but bear with me...) published a whole selection of photo's that were d-noticed the last time out in the Gulf. Funnily, they were all of dead civilians and horribly mutilated casualties.

'Nobody said it was in *your* name' I know, it's the name of Exxon...

"The media does report the true story in the end. Look what happened in Vietnam (and how the hell do you think we know how many Iraqi soldiers actually died?)."

Why do you think the total numbers of Iraqi soldiers and civilians killed in Gulf War I are still matters of debate more than ten years later? If anyone on either side of the question "knows" these numbers, it's not because the facts are clear, but because they BELIEVE a few of the estimates and disregard several other estimates. It's nowhere near as clear cut as you imply.

'If the Americans *do* decide to obliterate Iraq, they will find it impossible to hide, it will be disseminated in the press...'

It was not widely publicized or punished when US or "allied forces" massacred hundreds or thousands of retreating Iraqi soldiers and civilians caught in jammed traffic during Gulf War I. Why should we believe that it will happen for the next massacre? If you believe it will be impossible to hide, you should ask how the New York Times and some of the most respectable news outlets in the US were able to ignore Indonesia's invasion of East Timor and the massacres there for about 20-25 years, while the US continued to support Indonesia. There are plenty of ugly details that remain underpublicized, not hidden to people who search them out, but effectively hidden from the general population.

If our news media went after foreign policy stories as aggressively as they tear into celebrity scandals, you might be right about what can and can't be hidden.

Yes, they hide plenty of disgusting things by choosing not to report them or positioning them in back pages. Try "Manufacturing Consent" by Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky for dozens or hundreds more proofs of how wrong you are.

'The idea that Americans can do what they want and come out as "good guys" is paranoid pessimism of the worst kind.'

The idea that Americans can do what they want and come out as good guys is proven by the canonization of Ronald Reagan and Oliver North. Still billed as good guys by many people in the US. If that sounds like paranoid pessimism, I'm afraid you're out of touch with America.

Zagreb, I just noticed the addition to your nickname: "Zagreb - no one said it was going to be in *your* name."

If it's using our tax dollars, it is in our names. If it's our elected representatives forcing the war or consenting to it, then it is in our names. If they raise an American flag over sites where they've massacred people and used tactical nukes, and we don't say anything about it, then what are foreigners supposed to think when they see us raising American flags in front of our homes and businesses? What are we supposed to think of our nation or ourselves when we let that happen?

Hi anhaga,

Have these EM weapons been used in combat yet (Afghanistan maybe?) or tested much? Sounds a little like science fiction right now. Not that it would be outlandish to imagine such a thing would be possible. More like the things they show in "Popular Mechanics," always projected to be widely available within a few years or decade, and some of them just never catch on or never materialize. Like personal jetpacks or a flying car in every garage. Given the lack of accuracy in some alleged "smart bombs" and the total failure of missile defense tests that they're still claiming as successes, I was just wondering if these EM weapons are more vaporware.

"On a slightly different subject: Why could Dana Carvey make fun of George Bush senior for ever on Saturday Night Live but Natalie Maines of the Dixie Chicks has to apologise to the President for making a comment about how it feels to come from the same state? I mean, SNL used to rip into presidents whether the country was at war or not. When came the apotheosis of George W.? Is this another case of Free Fries -- I mean Free Speech?"

Simple new rules imposed since September 11. Either you're with us or with the terrorists.Dixie Chicks are about to find out what the Beatles faced back in the Sixties after Lennon joked about being "more popular than Jesus Christ" (or whatever).

I don't know if the EM stuff is going to work: maybe this really is the generals with their flies undone. But whose the threat for? If you're a news agency, are you going to bother sending your reporters into Baghdad with a bunch of expensive electronics?

Back to an earlier post where there was talk of Afghanistan being taken from the air (with help from local ground forces). I think we should probably wait another eight and a half years before we decide who's taken Afghanistan. The Soviet's were stuck in exactly the same place -- Kabul -- that the Americans are stuck now. The occupation of Afghanistan is nowhere near over.

It looks like Monday's the day:

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/03/16/summit030316

"Just a quick note to dear old zagreb about the truth of reporting restrictions in the Gulf - a couple of weeks ago, the Grauniad (yeah, I know, Mail readers like yourself spit on it Zagreb, but bear with me...) published a whole selection of photo's that were d-noticed the last time out in the Gulf. Funnily, they were all of dead civilians and horribly mutilated casualties."

I read the Guardian actually, Blueshark. The Mail? Can't stand the f**king paper.

It's interesting that you assume that anyone who is pro-war is automatically a right-wing tory. What about Nik Cohen? Or for that matter the anti-war Tory Kenneth Clarke? (and never mind that the most vocal opponent of the war on the international stage is the Right-Wing Gaullist Jacques Chirac) Who says it's me who sees things in black and white?

I wasn't talking about photographs, anyway. I was talking about events on the scale of the obliteration of cities being "unreported". Somehow, I think the US would have a great deal of difficulty preventing it's own people, let along foreign news agencies from hundreds of different countries reporting what is going on in Iraq. The cynic in me thinks that this is because, if the war goes ahead without the mass slaughter of civilians, some cynics will feel "justified" as the "truth" is being "suppressed".

"If it's using our tax dollars, it is in our names. If it's our elected representatives forcing the war or consenting to it, then it is in our names. If they raise an American flag over sites where they've massacred people and used tactical nukes, and we don't say anything about it, then what are foreigners supposed to think when they see us raising American flags in front of our homes and businesses? What are we supposed to think of our nation or ourselves when we let that happen?"

You don't "let is happen". You don't have any say in the matter. I suppose that sucks in many ways, but only a fool should assume all Americans are behind the actions of their government. It's like thinking that each and every Iraqi is responsible for what Saddam Hussein does.

Why are you all so determined to believe that the USA is going to "massacre people" and "use tactical nukes"? Anyway. Does this website run on pessimism and cynicism or something?

I just want to say old Dougs-Ready to be called up to fight for my country..anytime the Prime-minister wants Doug to go to war Doug will.GAWD BLESS THE UK...AND GAWD BLESS AMERICA, I WANT YOU GUYS TO KNOW OLD DOUG-WAS STANDING TO ATTENTION WHILE SINGING THAT BATTLE HYMN OF THE REPUBLIC.

Montana Redhead said:

>> On a less pleasant note, wonder how this story is going to play out...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030316/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_protester_killed_6

it was just there on my computer when I opened it up, and I can't seem to find anything else on it. <<

Thanks for bringing this one to my attention MT.
I found this updated Yahoo news story with pictures:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20030316/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians&e=3

The heroic personal sacrifice made here should be screaming across the American media, but instead we are hearing perverse speculations about what a kidnapping nutter in Utah did or didn't do to his young captive for the past several months and about bombs with 'EM' pulses that might hinder communications from inside Iraq.

Personally I am much more concerned about what Isreali soldiers have been doing to Palestinians for the past 50 years. Now that they've bulldozed an American woman, why isn't the US screaming 'stop'!
The slow methodical ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Isrealis has been going on since 1948 in spite of dozens of UN resolutions demanding that they stop.

peace
jwf

"Personally I am much more concerned about what Isreali soldiers have been doing to Palestinians for the past 50 years. Now that they've bulldozed an American woman, why isn't the US screaming 'stop'!
The slow methodical ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Isrealis has been going on since 1948 in spite of dozens of UN resolutions demanding that they stop."

What about what Palestinian suicide bombers have being doing to ordinary Israelis for the past few years? (and lets not forget that it was the Arab states who threatened to "push Israel (ie the Jews) into the sea" - the Israelis have never made it their stated aim to force Arabs from the entire Arabian peninsula) There are no good guys in that part of the world.

Incidentally, the United States supports Palestinian independence and statehood and has been doing more than any other country to try and bring peace to the region. I would agree that not enough has been done to reign-in the often brutal excesses of the far-Right Sharon government but I'd rather moves were being made to peace than the International Community took a "hands off, leave it to them" attitude to the whole situation.

>>I'll be off in a few minutes to Frankfurt/Main's US air-base to block the entries - hopefully with some 1.000s of people, hopefully not dragged away by police...<<
I hope all went well with you! Good luck...

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blgulfwars2.htm

It's 10.42 hours on the 17th *now* in NZ (we're 12 hours ahead of GMT.) Dubya was quoted on breakfast radio as saying "within 24 hours", so I think you may well be correct, Peachy - wish I thought you weren't!

"Dixie Chicks are about to find out what the Beatles faced back in the Sixties after Lennon joked about being "more popular than Jesus Christ" (or whatever)."

I'll do my best to ignore the other posts here(as I find them a bit myoptic), and try to give a little illumination to the Dixie Chicks present problem.

They depend on a country music market here in the "States". I think the term "Redneck audience" fits well. Most "rednecks" I know(I will include myself) are in strong support of "Dubya" at the moment.

The last thing a country artist needs to do is to "put down" the president of the US right now. Especially while standing on foriegn soil(yes, that makes a difference to us "rednecks").

Yes, we believe in freedom of speech, but we also believe in freedom to buy. Whether they realize it or not, thier fan base evaporated with one sentence.

In the rock world, no one would have noticed...h**l, it would be expected. In the country world, its' tantamount to career suicide.

NM

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/bliraqpriceless.htm

I can't give links, Zagreb, but we've been hearing about 'Shock and Awe' on radio, TV and in newspapers here in NZ for *weeks*! (Half our news media are American owned, BTW)