h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I love Jesdus in the same way I love Muhammad and all the Prophets. For Muslims Jesus is one of the greatest Prophets no question. Muslims believe that he had a miracle birth with no male intervention. We believe that he cured the blind, sick and leper with Gods permission. Muslims believe that he preached the truth, the Gospel, and that he was the messiah. The only difference between my faith and yours is the subject of Jesus being God and dying for our sins. Muslims do not believe you see in the principle of original sin, that everyone is born in to sin thanks to Eves eating from the forbidden tree and tempting Adam. Islam says that God forgave Adam and Eve for there sin and that they both sinned equally.

Muslims believe that no soul is forced to carry the sins of another.

An as for your answer to my question on why you believe Jesus is God, well faith does not cut it. I can quite argubably say that I believe that giant rabbits underground are the reaon for gravity, I believe this because I have faith in what I believe. Its circuler reasoning, and as you identify you need a reason for having faith in your belief You state that your is because youbelieve in the bible one hudred percent, very well. But that means it has to say in it that Jesus is God, and no where in the bible does Jesus say 'I am God' or 'worship me'. Proof is takien from vague verses that could well be shown to have had there meaning changed as they have been taken out of context, or in some cases the verses did not exist in the early bibles as proven by the RSV I was talking about earlier.

Adib Qasim

im in the computer room at the minute and therefore havent got my bible to hand. im Matthews gospel,(not sure cahpter or verse), it says "before abraham I Am".
Jesus says this to the jews.
God is refered to in the bible in sevaral places as the great I Am.
what jesus is saying is that before any man was placed on this Earth, God existed and that he is God.
by having faith in jesus we commit ourselves to his teachings and to his way of life. we all mess up and sin along the way but God forgets that when we ask for forgivness because when he looks at us he sees perfection because Jesus took our sin away.
it is amazing to think that God would allow us to crucify his son so that all ours sins may be taken away and we could have a perfect relationship with God out father.
we dont have to do anything to have this relationship other than believe in God and in Jesus.
Christianity isnt a religion of works, it is a religion of grace.
God may us holy in his sights by the death of his son and allowed us to come to him through grace.
it is an amazing thing to do.
the gospels tell us everything Jesus did. the old testement is full of propets and their predictions. Jesus fullfilled a;ll of these propecies and the gospels tell us this.

Isiah prophesised that Jesus would prepare a great banquet for us. (isiah 20 or 21 i think). this is what jesus is doing in heaven for us. when we die we are raised to heaven to join the great banquet that has been prepared for us. we dont have to do anything to gain entry to this. Jesus did everything that will ever need doing by dying for us.

this isnt to say that we can lie back and do as we please. by believing in Jesus we get the holy spirit which guides us in living distinct lives for the glory of God. it is not an easy path to choose to belive in Jesus. there is no right or wrong way to live our lives. each of us must live it in the way God chooses. we have to submitt our lives to him.
having faith is Jesus is not easy but this faith is everything we need to live our lives.

"An as for your answer to my question on why you believe Jesus is God, well faith does not cut it.

Fine Adib, but what makes *you* this is true:

"Muslims believe that no soul is forced to carry the sins of another.



HN is saying Jesus is the son of the bigG but Adib's got a book that says different

HN's got a book where the allegedly infallible bigG contradicts himself one minuet we are all seperate races then we are all brothers. In episode one the jews go round smiting and smoting like thereis no tomorrow then Jesus says love thy neighbour.

When You have worked it out please let me in on what the truth really is.

one love

Well firstly I ewant to say two things...

Sorry have not replid sooner I have been busy, you will not know the anmount of paper work I have had to deal with these last few says, I have bairly posted on here at all.

Secondly and more inportantly, I just want you to know that i have nothing against Christians and that I don't mean any offense or anything, I am enjoying the talk with you, but I don't want you to think I am someone who dislikes Christians. My faith teaches me to respect all religions, and we respect Christians more than most other faiths simply becasue you believe in one God, even if it is a bit wierd to us the way you go about it. Anyway on with show...

Yes I am aware of this "before Abraham I am" this does not mean anything, as firstly many people have existed before Abraham in the bible.

Some examples: Jeremiah 1:5 reads "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

or Proverbs 8:22-31

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;


Another example would be in Hebrews 7:1-3 which reads:

For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

An if in the bible saying 'I am' is proof of divinship then what about John 9:8-9 which reads:

His neighbors and those who had formerly seen him begging asked, "Isn't this the same man who used to sit and beg?" 9Some claimed that he was.

Others said, "No, he only looks like him."
But he (the blind man) himself insisted,"I AM the man."


and Mattew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I AM not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with


act 9:10
Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I AM, Lord."

For more information on I am, see: http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/I-Am.htm

Also think about it this way, most Christians that I have spoken to tell me that anyone who does not believe that Jesus was God will not enter paradise/heaven. When I ask about those before Jesus then they say, no they did not believe in Christ, and when I ask about tribes in the middle of know where who have never heard of Christ, they are doomed too. Then I met a sister once who had been a Christian, or was it Roman Cathlis, can't remember sorry. Anyway she had a baaby but it was stioll born, the vicar tod her it would mot be granted paradise as it had not been baptised.

Or inother words as God knows every thing, then God knew before He even made the world that he would sentance millions of people before the arrival of Christ to hell and those who have no communication about Christ and anyone who is not baptised. Is that fair? No its not.

The Qur'an thoughs says that all people who worship one God will go to paradise, all people who have not heard the message of one God will enter paradise and all children who die will go to paradise as a child is seen as sinless till it reaches a mature age as a child has no real concept of right and wrong like an adult has, and so all children get paraidse.

Which is fairer?

Take care and peace.

Adib

For you who said that the Bible contradicts itself if you could get me some examples I would gladly like to explain to you how it does not contradict itself!!!

And about God condemning...first that example you gave is most likely a Catholic example. Most Christians I know believe that there is an age of maturity that before you reach that age you will go to Heaven. I'm sorry to say that those who do not believe that Jesus is God will not enter Heaven. IT is a part of believing it Jesus. If you do not believe that he was God then you can't believe that he died for all sins and that is what it takes to get to Heaven. And about the people that have never heard about God or Jesus, there is a verse in the Bible, but I can't remember what it is...I'll have to get back to you on it. But is states that all men will know of God and Christ before they die. This may be just from seeing God's glorious creation and not from someone telling them, but they will still know. And as for the people before Jesus, they were called to follow the Law and that is how they got to Heaven.

Oh and on my last post I referenced a verse as Galations 2:20 and that was wrong. The right reference is John 14:21.

I hope you all are having a good week and I hope it continues that way!!!
Chauncey
Acts 20:24

Good morning,

Well I know a few contradictions like the old time favorite of did Solomon have 10,000 stalls for horses or 1000? and is wisdom folly;

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

"For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

But I don't pay much attention to contradictions sept the first one as peoples answers to it make me laught some times.

If you could find that verse about forgiving people who have not heard of God, that will be great as I can't remember reading that.

I think if all it took to believe in God was see his glorious creation then all people would be religious....

Actually you said I think itd Galations, you did not say it was, which is why I did not point it out to you, as you was saying it of the top of your head.

So are you going to address any of my other points, I look forward to reading your replies. I love have theological discussions with people.



"Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!"

Al-Qur'an Sura 5 ayah 75 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])

Have a nice day.

Adib

Hello Adib Qasim

This is an interesting discussion. I just thought some of the Scripture-based points were a bit debatable. Anyway, here are my thoughts on them.

From the Jews' reaction to Jesus' statement 'Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58) - they wanted to stone him - it seems clear they understood him as having just made a special claim. This also ties in with John 5:18, where it is confirmed that the Pharisees want to kill Jesus because he was making Himself equal to God. So it's clearly different from the 'I am' in a phrase like 'Here I am'.

(As an aside, some languages have different forms of the verb 'to be', so you wouldn't even use the same verb in, e.g. Spanish. In English the word 'am' is the same but the meaning is different, in the one case 'exist', in the other 'stand'.)

As regards the passage from Proverbs, this is the famous poem to Wisdom, and as this is usually taken (at least in Catholic theology) as a prefiguring of Jesus it isn't necessarily referring to anyone else - although it was only after the life of Jesus that this passage was seen in those terms. Before then the 'Wisdom' figure was more mysterious. Another source of passages like the above is the Book of Wisdom itself.

Something parallel can be said for Melchisedek, who first appears in the book of Genesis. In later writings he is taken to be a prefiguring of Jesus: 'You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.' (Psalm 110:4) The psalm looks forward to the Messiah, and that is why it is quoted in Hebrews 7:14-18, a few verses on from your extract: it is Jesus who is being exalted, through Melchisedek if you like. Jesus actually quoted the first line of this psalm in reference to himself so the connection is explicit.

As for the passage from Jeremiah, the person speaking through him is God. I don't think the quotation is a problem from either of our points of view, given that God is transcendent.

I am a Catholic as you might have guessed, and I use the RSV - funny none of the Christians here seem to have heard of it! Its use is common among Anglicans and English speaking Catholics.

Ho hum.

For an atheist like myself there is a certain amusement value in the spectacle of people with different holy books arguing with each other as to whose version is infallible, and citing "faith" as the sole criteria of judgement on the isssue, but I shall try to be objective.

What does "faith" mean here. How does it differ from a "belief" which may be false?

Are you making a claim that "faith" is a special form of belief that somehow *makes* the belief true?

Or is it in fact being used as a special form of definition - does "I have faith in the Bible/Koran" mean something like "I am *defining* truth as "that which is written in the Bible/Koran" and then perhaps conflating it with the usual definition "that which is actually the case"?

Noggin

Hi Nuggin

Hu hum ,is that sandscript? or I know it appears in other eastern lanhuages like Malay and such like. In some languages I think it means unite as one literally.... Hmmm not sure, like time since I did any langugages.

Faith is all about beliving in something, but there should be a reason for why you belive something otherwise its just circuler thinking and following blindly.

for example "I believe in God" why "cus my holy book says he exists" why do you believe your holy book "cus I have faith in God"

Its lazy thinking and not very good for you as your following blindly.

We are debating on whether one particuler artcle of faith, Jesus as God, is true or not, i don't think we are arguing. Just having an interesting inter faith dialogue.

take care Adib

Actually it's Noggin and it's not sandscript (or even Sanskrit ) - it's English.

Would I be right in thinking you're the researcher formally known s Muzaakboy? If so we've met before.

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But how can this be debated, rather than just asserted on the one hand, and denied on the other? What might one say that is not an example of the sort of circular reasoning that you have already deplored?

One could explore the claim in some way, I suppose, to try and elucidate it, or to think through what might follow from it, or what else would have to be the case for it to be true, and so on. That might be interesting.

Noggin

Hi Andrew S

Did not see your posting on my first read through, oops. sorry

Regarding the I am thing,

Before abraham he was , so this could be , between Adam - Abraham period

but as you may see , Solomon in proverbs 8:22-31 was very specific to say he was before even the creation of the heaven , earth and everything


Jeremiah was with god before his birth.
So you say Jesus's use of "I am" is unique because he's suggesting that he is "I am", which in that link I put on earier expalins how 'I am' is not one of God's names. The link was written by a Jew fluent in Hebrew.
Nowhere in the passage had the Jews ever implied they think Jesus is implying to be God. Anyone can see that in the passage that Jesus is arguing that God has sent him and Jews are supposed to follow him.



'Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!'

Al-Qur'an, sura 5 ayah 75 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])

Adib

the I Am can be found in John 8 verse 58.

the jews saw abraham as there oldest member but jesus says he was there before abraham was born. the jews then took stones to throw at him. they had started to belive him but refering to himself as the great i am had turned them against him.
he equalled himself to God because he was God.


faith comes from having the holy spirit in you and changing you from inside so that you live your life the way God wants you too. you dont have to change your life and stop living your desires. the holy spirit changes your desires so you live your life like jesus, or at least try.
faith strenghtens you.
it is a very real belive that you are saved by Jesus because you know the truth

Hi Adib



The thing is that this passage runs on directly from Proverbs 8:1-21, and it is clear that the 'I' is a personification of Wisdom, as it was in the previous verses, e.g. Proverbs 8:4. The writer isn't speaking about himself.

To remove any doubt, the whole passage can be seen at: http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Proverbs+8:1-31&vnum=yes&version=nrsv

On the passage about Jeremiah, I really don't see the problem. God, speaking through Jeremiah, does not say 'before Abraham was, you are'. What he does say is 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;' Unlike the other quotation, this could also be said of Abraham. It is about what God knows and chooses, not pre-existence. St Paul declares something not dissimilar of Christians in general, having been chosen 'before the foundation of the world' (Ephesians 1:4).

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But what does all that *mean* exactly? Is the holy spirit here perceived as a "thing" (and if so what *kind* of a thing), or as a state of mind? How do you know what God wants (given that at least some people have done terrible things with the conviction that it was what God wanted them to do)?

The belief may be real, but we all have some beliefs that are actually not true. Thequestion remains "How do you ascertain whether what you believeis true?"

Noggin

because when you become a christian you begin to live life different. without any effort you begin to look at life different. it makes a big change in your life.

As someone brought up in the church; christened, sunday school, attending services, christian acts of worship at school, Boys Brigade and reading the Bible. I have to say I could never detect any difference in myself or other people who called themselves christians from the general milleu of humanity.

I have neverfound christians to be kinder, more thoughtful or more observant of "christian morals" than other people.

Dr Martin Luther King Jr. one of the worlds most prominent and celebrated christians who observed the bibles latter teachings on non-violence in a heroic and almost saintly way was well known for ignoring the bits about the sanctity of marriage.

On a day to day level I dont know any christians who observe the bigGs whole day of rest thing. It seems to me that christianity in the majority of its deiverse varieties today hardly resembles what it once was. oes this mean that people have stryed or that the mmutable and perfect bigG who guides his flock has changed his mind about what it is christians should be doing

one love

The reason you don't see a difference is because with a lot of people who say they are Christians there is no difference. And as for the others, just because we're Christians does not in anyway mean we are perfect. We are horrible people...so far from perfect it is scary. But because we have Christ we are seen as perfect in God's eyes. This in no way means we can do whatever we want and get away with it....if you are a true Christian, sactified by Christ, then you will WANT to change and you will now that, that change only comes through Christ. It is not easy to say no to temptation...to tell you the truth I've probably done things worse than the majority of the people on this board, but because I have Christ I have been forgiven and I have also been given the strength to overcome these temptations and sin!!!
Chauncey
Acts 20:24

exactly chauncey

we will allways try to be distinct and live our lives like Jesus did but we inevitably fail. the difference for a christian though is even though we dont live perfect lives God sees us as having done so because of his son. we dont have to do anything to be right with God and to get eternal life. everything has already been done and we just have to accept the grace. we can do pretty much whatever we want and get forgiven but those who are christians recieve the oly spirit and dont think like that and will try to live life in a way that peases God

Sorry I have been off line, busy at work.

Right then, firstly as already stated you can not have three distinct personalitys that are one, 1+1+1= 3 not 1.

No where in the bible does it say that it is totally God's words. Instead, as used by the friendly jehovas witnesses that call at my house, you refer to 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 3:15-16, which to sum up says in timothy that Paul says that all scriptures is inspired for God, and in Pete, Peter says that Paul is correct as Paul is a writer of scripture. Er ok So if I am a scientist and I say that the sky is black and another scientist with the same view as me says He is right as he is a scientist are you going to believe me? No because its not proof.

'All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness'

'And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.'


Another probelm with this is that in 1 Corinthians 7:25 Paul writes with out the command of God.

'Now concerning the unmarried, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy.'

As for the divinty of Jesus well the problem is Jesus never says he was devine, and it is only by speculation that the conclusion he is divine can be made. As Jesus never actually said I am God or Worship me, he always drew attentio to the farther in Heaven.

Many people in the bible are called Messiah in the Hebrew texts and many people performed miracles that surpased even Jesus.


Ok lets talk about the holy spirit for a bit then. What or whom is the holy spirit. The first thing to realise that every time you read holy ghost you are actually reading holy spirit they just translated it to ghost for that bit, as the hebrew word is the same in all of the verse for spirit and ghost.

So holy spirit could mean someone spiritual or close to God through his spiritualaty.

Now what does Jesus say about this holy spirit or conforter as he is mentioned as in the bible.

I can't remember the exact qoute and verse, but its on the lines of 'It is benefit that i go for If I do not go then the comforter will not come, and he has many more things to say to you now, but you can not bear them not'

So can I aks, give me one thing the holy ghost has told you in the last 2000 odd years, not one thing. E very branch of Chrisitanity says it has the Holy Ghost yet all are heading in different directions. If you all had the holy ghost then you should be moving along the same path, not in seperate directions.

An why should a non believer in Chirst get punished for the sin of Eve? not very justice. Would we call if justise if your grand child shot and killed someone and you got punished for the crime instead. Thats not justice.

Read this verse very carefully, you have not seemed to grasp the ver simple argument it makes.

'Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!'

Al-Qur'an, sura 5 ayah 75 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])

Take care

Adib

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Win-win situation then? All you have to do is *believe*?

Piece of .


az