h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

not really.

Thats like the old dialoque of proof and no proof.

Christian: "The bible is from God and Jesus is God."
Muslim: "I don't think it is"
Christian: "I have proof."
Muslim: "But there is inconsistances in your argument."
Christian: "Ask God to believe".
Muslim: "Why should I?" (claim based on proof)
Christian: "Because of what I have shown you."
Muslim: "But these things do mpt prove anything." (proof based on claim).

Or like the other argument "What do you gain by denying the divinity of Jesus?" Naturally the answer to this can be found with our buddy Jesus who says in John 8:32 that, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."

The truth of the matter is that by claiming divinity for Jesus, we are using what people said or interpreted and not what Jesus himself said.

The Qur'an on the other hand tells Muslims that in ancient times every nation had its messangers of God.
Many people possess the truth but have to varying degrees added to it. So Muslims believe that most old religions stripped of all the gloss would point to Islam i.e. submission to the one true God.

The problem is that you have deduced more than the evidence contains the best you can come out with is to point at a verse and says that this supports your views of a Trinity or Jesus being devine.

This is becasue the definirtion of trinity is not found in the vocabualary found on the lips of Jesus within the bible.
Some verse might harmonise with the view that you hold as Jesus being devine but they do not prove it. For example, rain = wet strees but wet streets does not mean rain.

'Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!'

Al-Qur'an, sura 5 ayah 75 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])


Adib

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This is really the crux of the matter. You can make assertions such as those in posts 37 and 38 for as long as you like, and claim them to be knowledge, but in the absence of any evidence, or any attempt to analyse the meaning of the statements, it all boils down to wishful thinking (see post 40).

The problem of proof is particularly profound for Christianity, which has a highly elaborated theology and eschatology, and for those currents in any religion that insist that what they say is literally true, rather than true on some other level (moral, psychological, social etc).

Noggin

Okay Adib...I have a question for you...what do you think of all the prophecies of Christ in the Old Testament? I cannot think of any verses off hand right now...but I will try to post some later, when I have a chance to look for them in my Bible.
Chauncey

Well as a Muslim we believe that Jesus is Propeciesed in the old testament and Muhammad is propeciesed in both the old and new testaments.

The problem is that Messiah does not mean Gods son, many people in the old testament are called Messiah.

I presume your refering to these verse:

Old Testament (Isaiah 40:3) says:
A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."

New Testament (Matthew 3:1-2) says:
In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea, and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

Old Testament (Micah 5:2) says:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

New Testament (Matthew 2:1) says:
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod...


etc etc...

None of these claim that Jesus will be the son of God, just that the Jews are awaiting another Prophet.

As for Muhammad in the Biblr who is more alike Muhammad and Moses or Moses and Jesus:

one such verse is Deuteronomy 18, Moses stated that God told him:

"I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." (Deuteronomy 18:18-19).

From these verses we conclude that the prophet in this prophecy must have the following three characteristics:

1) That he will be like Moses.

2) That he will come from the brothers of the Israelites, i.e. the Ishmaelites.

3) That God will put His words in to the mouth of this prophet and that he will declare what God commands him.



i)Both Moses and Muhammad were given a comprehensive law and code of life. Both encountered their enemies and were victorious in miraculous ways. Both were accepted as prophets and statesmen. Both migrated following conspiracies to assassinate them. Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlook not only the above similarities but other ones as well. These include the natural birth (some thing Jesus did not have), the family life (Jesus never married and hd children), and death of Moses and Muhammad but not Jesus. Moreover Jesus was regarded by his followers as the Son of God and not exclusively as a prophet of God, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslims believe Jesus was. So, this prophecy refers to the Prophet Muhammad and not Jesus, because Muhammad is more like Moses than Jesus.

Also, from the Gospel of John the Jews were waiting for the fulfillment of three distinct prophecies. The first was the coming of Christ. The second was the coming of Elijah. The third was the coming of the Prophet. This is obvious from three questions that were posed to John the Baptist:

"Now this was John's testimony, when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, "I am not the Christ." They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No." (John 1:19-21).

If you look in a Bible with cross-references, you will find in the marginal notes where the words "the Prophet" occur in John 1:21, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18:18. meaning that we conclude from this that Jesus Christ is not the prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:18.

ii)Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac (Genesis 21). Ishmael became the grandfather of the Arab nation, and Isaac became the grandfather of the Jewish nation. The prophet spoken of was not to come from among the Jews themselves, but from among their brothers, i.e. the Ishmaelites. Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael.

Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the servant of God, His "messenger" and "chosen one" who will bring down a law. "He will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." (Isaiah 42:4).

Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Kedar. Who is Kedar? According to Genesis 25:13, Kedar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of Muhammad.


iii)God sent the Angel Gabriel to teach Muhammad the exact words of God (the Holy Quran) and asked him to dictate them to the people as he heard them. The words are therefore not his own. They did not come from his own thoughts or mind, but were put into his mouth by the Angel Gabriel. During the life time of Muhammad, and under his supervision, these words were then memorized and written by his companions.
This prophecy in Deuteronomy mentioned that this prophet will speak the words of God in the name of God. If we looked to the Holy Quran, we will find that all its chapters, except Chapter 9, are preceded or begin with the phrase, "In the Name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful."



Another indication is that Isaiah ties the messenger connected with Kedar with a new song (a scripture in a new language) to be sung to the Lord (Isaiah 42:10-11). This is mentioned more clearly in the prophecy of Isaiah: "and another tongue, will he speak to this people" (Isaiah 28:11). Another related point, is that the Quran was revealed in sections over a span of twenty-three years. It is interesting to compare this with Isaiah 28 which speaks of the same thing, "For it is: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there." (Isaiah 28:10).

An so Muslims believe that both Muhammad and Jesus are mentioned in the old testament and Muhammad is prophesised in the new.

Adib

Well as there is no responce to my post, I take it you do not wish to discuss this anymore, or that you are just busy.

So if you do not wish to discuss this anymore thwen maybe we can go back to the two issues that I have as just me, they being:

a) What gives with all the pornography in it?

b) The science bits, such as the age of the earth and day and night being made before the sun, huh?

As I said before this is what I orginally wanted to talk about, I did not want to discuss the whole Islam and Bible thing as it always ends the same way.

Adib

Hi Adib

It's a bit difficult for me to get online these days, but here's a quick response to your comments about Elijah and the Christ. The first few verses of St Mark's Gospel quote Malachy in such a way that he identifies John the Baptist with the Elijah figure, and Jesus with God. This is a coded reference to Jesus' divinity that is not usually picked up.

I think there are several parts of St John's Gospel where Jesus more explicity claims to be God, and this also appears in some of St Paul's letters, notably the Christological hymn in his letter to the Philippians Chapter 2. On the other hand with Scripture alone as your guide perhaps you could read them a different way, so I agree to differ with you.

Hi,

O kno worries, I will wait till you have the time to beable to right a better responce. its not fair for me to keep writing massiave responses if you do not have the time to write long ones too.

Take care, and when things are easier for you to discuss, then we can continue from then.

Adib

Ok I know I said I would not say anything but I thought I wuld add just a small thing.

Compare the bible with the Qur'an you will see the bible focus mainly on life and death of Jesus. those who were
allegedly with him allegedly loved him and allegedly wrote alot about him.

Therefore the outline for content of bible was allegedly based on the focus of those who allegeddly loved jesus on jesus himself.

That is but natural as you cannot see God, but a Prophet is right there in front of everyone to see and to love.

People end up writing loads and loads of stuff on prophet but
they dont know what to write about God, noone has seen him.

In the case of Christians they made him to LORD and SAVIOUR....God now completely out of picture as Jesus is now god.

The Qur'an however is the printed words of what the Prophet was given by God and as such "Fails" miserably at accounting the live of the Prophet Muhammad. To learn about Muhammad we have to look at hadith and history books, but not the Qur'an. The Qur'an is simply Gods law to man.

Because of this the whole worship of Muhammad could nottake place as in Christianity where the focus of the religious book is on the Prophet Jesus.

You hate bad "grammEr"?
"capitIliZe" stuff??

Was it Jesus that said that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?? Should have been...

Flowers,

You hate bad "grammEr"?
"capitIliZe" stuff??

Was it Jesus that said that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?? Should have been...

Hi Adib,
I know we've had some interesting (fraught?!) discussions over Islam, but I'm just posting this to say that I, as an agnostic/atheist, see far more sense in Islam's interpretation of Jesus than in orthodox Christianity's. I use the term orthodox Christianity because I think that some of the early "heretical" Gnostic Christian sects also had a more sensible approach to the interpretation of Jesus' life and death.

In response to other messages in this thread regarding evolution. It is my opinion that the theory of evolution is the best, most encompassing theory to explain the diversity of life on Earth. The Genesis story doesn't really hold water and creationism is not a valid theory, as it starts from the standpoint of attempting to prove Genesis and disprove evolution. However, if the theory of evolution is true, this does not necessarily equate with the non-existence of God. It is entirely plausible that God did begin the process. Of course, many evolutionists have come up with theories of non-divine means for starting the process, but these are still only theories.

Hi Kuro, how you doing? Ben a long time since I heard from you.

Hope you are well, yes we did have some interesting discussions.

An you are right in the early years of Chrisitanity there where several different sects on the idea of Jesus, but then they central Christian church basically said anyone not believeing Jesus is God is commiting blasphamie and would be killed.

I think the evolution stuff was befroe I got here. I don't believe that a animal can evolve in to a completly new group such as lets say a horse into a rhino.

But I do think that animals can evolve in to new sub species, due to survival of the fittest, and so animals can evolve to make certain traits more pronounced over time, but they can not evolve new traits, For example I do not believe that a monkey could evolve a pair of wings.

But let not turn this into a discussion on evolution on this page lol. Agree to disagree....

Adib

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Why not? It might be more interesting that a holy-book-quoting-chapter-and-verse competition.

Why exactly is the Qur'an more valid than the Christian Bible? Or vice versa?

Both were written by various men talking about their GOD experiences.

How do either of these end up becoming THE WORD OF GOD? Surely they are just some people's opinions and ideas of what they think GOD is.

So why are some men's opinions taken as the actual word of god? I've never understood this.


az

Ah yes but I don't want or was seeking a whos got a better verse compitition though did I. As I said before I just bought up to points that I as a person, not a Muslim, dislike about the bible.

But instead of dealing with thouse points, they bought up the whole Jesus is God thing which I jut kinda went along with.

Which where;

a) Whay is there so much pornography in it?

b) The inaccurate science bits, such as the age of the earth and day and night being made before the sun?

Well as for your other points Azahar, the Qur'an was written and compiled in the life time of the Prophet, not hundreds of years after, as is the case with Christianity.

Bible was written by varius men after the death of Jesus, and contains words of God, words of prophet and words of historian. Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad who spoke it to several people who wrote it down and double checked it ith him once a year. It only contains the words of God.

So Muhammad does not talk about his experiences with God in Qur'an, infact Qur'an has hardly any mention of Muhammad in it.

presumble people believe its word of God becasue they believe in it, which is circuler thinkin but for various people it will be for varous reasons.

Such as there is various reasons why people do not blieve in God.

The Qur'an was believed to be words of God due tothe character of Muhammad, the elegance of what was being said, it still is the finest piece of Arabic text to date, and is unequaled in its elegance in its native Arabic. An th science found with n the Qur'an and the message its self.

Oh and another reason for not having a debate on evolution and creation on this thread is simply because this thread is called 'i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!' and not evolution vs creation, there are plenty of threads on here that cater to that already and so there is nothing wrong with people debating about religion on other threads, you don't have to be subscribed to this thread if you don't want to be.

Adib

Hello Adib

On the original questions:

a) I disagree that the Bible has pornography unless the word is being used in a wider sense, although I accept it isn't squeamish about details. But the stories have to be read in the context of a wider story: the convenant with God's chosen people, how again and again the people rejected it and then returned to it. So it's not just a set of disconnected episodes.
b) On science, I don't regard Genesis as belonging to a scientific sort of genre, and creationism isn't a particularly 'Catholic' thing. The message is more that God created everything out of nothing, that he continues to keep everything in being, and that he made mankind specially.

Ok, well the problem is it does not need to have to go to into so much detail about things. It could just say that people went astray but came back to the correct path, but it does not.

Lets look at some examples.

Incest:

'Besides she is indeed my sister, the daughter of my father but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.'
Genesis 20:12

"And the first-born said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring through our father." 33 So they made their father drink wine that night; and the first-born went in, and lay with her father; he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 34 And on the next day, the first-born said to the younger, "Behold, I lay last night with my father; let us make him drink wine tonight also; then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring through our father." 35 So they made their father drink wine that night also; and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 36 Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father. 37 The first-born bore a son, and called his name Moab; he is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 The younger also bore a son, and called his name Ben-ammi; he is the father of the Ammonites to this day."
Genesis 31-38


"22 While Israel dwelt in that land Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine; and Israel heard of it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve. "
Genesis 35:22

"15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be a harlot, for she had covered her face. 16 He went over to her at the road side, and said, "Come, let me come in to you," for he did not know that she was his daughter-in-law. She said, "What will you give me, that you may come in to me?" 17 He answered, "I will send you a kid from the flock." And she said, "Will you give me a pledge, till you send it?" 18 He said, "What pledge shall I give you?" She replied, "Your signet and your cord, and your staff that is in your hand." So he gave them to her, and went in to her, and she conceived by him."

Genesis 38:15-18


Incest and rape


"10. And Amnon said unto Tamar, Bring the meat into the chamber, that I may eat of thine hand. And Tamar took the cakes which she had made, and brought them into the chamber to Amnon her brother.

11. And when she had brought them unto him to eat, he took hold of her and said unto her, Come lie with me, my sister.

12. And she answered him, Nay, my brother, do not force me; for no such thing ought to be done in Israel: do not thou this folly.

13. And I, whither shall I cause my shame to go? and as for thee, thou shalt be as one of the fools in Israel. Now therefore, I pray thee, speak unto the king; for he will not withhold me from thee.

14. Howbeit he would not hearken unto her voice: but, being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her.

15. Then Amnon hated her exceedingly; so that the hatred wherewith he hated her was greater than the love wherewith he had loved her. And Amnon said unto her, Arise, be gone.

16. And she said unto him, There is no cause: this evil in sending me away is greater than the other that thou didst unto me. But he would not hearken unto her.

17. Then he called his servant that ministered unto him, and said, Put now this woman out from me, and bolt the door after her.

18. And she had a garment of divers colours upon her: for with such robes were the king's daughters that were virgins apparelled. Then his servant brought her out, and bolted the door after her.

19. And Tamar put ashes on her head, and rent her garment of divers colours that was on her, and laid her hand on her head, and went on crying."
Samuel 2, Chapter 13:10-19

Rape and then giving victim to rapist as wife:

And Dinah the daughter of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land.

2. And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her.

3. And his soul crave unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel and spake kindly unto the damsel.

4. And Shechem spake unto his father Hamor, saying, Get me this damsel to wife.
5. And Jacob heard that he had defiled Dinah his daughter: now his sons were with his cattle in the field: and Jacob held his peace until they were come.

6. And Hamor the father of Shechem went out unto Jacob to commune with him.

7. And the sons of Jacob came out of the field when they heard it: and the men were grieved, and they were very wroth, because he had wrought folly in Israel in lying with Jacob's daughter; which thing ought not to be done.

8. And Hamor communed with them, saying, The soul of my son Shechem longeth for your daughter: I pray you give her to him to wife.

9. And make ye marriages with us, and give your daughters unto us, and take our daughters unto you.

10. And ye shall dwell with us: and the land shall be before you; dwell and trade ye therein, and get you possessions therein.

11. And Shechem said unto her father and unto her brethren, Let me find grace in your eyes, and what ye shall say unto me I will give.

12. Ask me never so much dowry and gift, and I will give according as ye shall say unto me: but give me the damsel to wife.

13. And the sons of Jacob answered Shechem and Hamor his father deceitfully, and said, because he had defiled Dinah their sister:
14. And they said unto them, We cannot to this thing, to give our sister to one that is uncircumcised; for that were a reproach unto us:

15. But in this will we consent unto you: If ye will be as we be, that every male of you be circumcised;

16. Then will we give our daughters unto you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and we will become one people.

17. But if ye will not hearken unto us, to be circumcised; then will we take our daughter, and we will be gone.

18. And their words pleased Hamor and Shechem Hamor's son.
Genesis, Chapter 34:1-18

Farther allows daughters to be raped:

"And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2. And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

3. And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

4. But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5. And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7. And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof."

Genesis, Chapter 19:1-8

I could go on. What is the moral lesson in these? What are they teaching? Would you really let your children read these things?

Adib

I thought you didn't want a verse competition!

Seriously though, the main message (or 'reading', if you prefer) of the Old Testament is that God seeks out man. It is the history of the Covenant, how God gratuitously chose a people for himself, not for any merits of their own, and the history of that covenant, i.e. how it survived, despite everything. The unsavoury episodes underline the 'despite everything'. It has to be read on the large scale. This lesson is also good for us now.

Obviously this is what I believe as a Christian. I don't know what a Muslim believes about the Old Testament and would be interested to hear (or read). Perhaps you only take some of it to be inspired, such as the Commandments.

Actually my point was that I did not want to have a debate of who has the best verse, I.e. Bible says this but Qur'an says this. I know the Qur'an would win lol.

I printed these verse out to show the rape, adultery, fornication in the bible. Its onle a tiny potion of all of wat can be found in the bible. My point still stands, would you be happy for your 5 year old daughter to read such things and learn such things?

An if you want to bring in the Qur'an on this then fine, comnpare the two, not one bit of of pornographic material in The Qur'an not even some thing that can mistaken for it.

We believe that ten commandments where from God. but we do not believe that the book you call today the old testment is the original old testament as in the case of the new testament it has been added to and changed over time.

Adib

i would allow my 5 year old daughter to read it.
in this world there is such things are mentioned in the bible. you cant protect children from the truth for ever. would it not be better to give them the chance to read about them and how God conquers through it all?

incidently, this passage you gave us:
And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2. And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

3. And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

4. But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5. And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7. And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof."

Genesis, Chapter 19:1-8

was given to me by a minister when i was 14 to explain why homesexuality was wrong. i myself thought it was promting rape.
however i have reread it since and actually read on. the rest of the passage goes on to say how the men broke into the house attacking everyone. but God sends is angels to tell lot to escape with his family. the rest of the city was punished but lot, his wife and daughters escape and there lives are saved.

you cant pick half a passage to make a point. you need the whole passage. its not about rape its about how God saves lot and his family.