A Conversation for The Bible - a Perspective

i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 101

andrews1964

Well, I didn't want to start an argument, and the points above were not intended in a polemic sort of spirit. Perhaps not all Christians would agree with me. My thoughts on your observations would be:

- God can do anything, but because he has left mankind with free will he doesn't work in the same way with mankind as he might with inanimate objects. (If he did, perhaps Jesus would not have been crucified.) So there might be a real danger to the survival of his people. This does raise the interesting question of whether it would have been better in that case to make mankind differently, and I can see why someone might dislike the argument, as you say.

- There were two covenants, the old and the new. They are different, of that there is no doubt. When Christians say the teaching is for all time, they mean the new covenant and the teaching found there.

- Some of the old Law was clearly declared obsolete by Jesus or his early followers, e.g. you can find the dietary requirements (shellfish and all) being annulled in Mark chapter 7, also Acts chapters 10, 11 and 15, and other places.

- Some interpretations of the old Law are also changed by Jesus, especially in Matthew chapter 6, the sermon on the Mount, for instance, 'You have heard it said, love your neighbour and hate your enemies. But I say to you, love your enemies...'

- Other parts of the old Law are included in the new covenant, e.g. the Ten Commandments, as part of the natural law - and also they are cited by Jesus at times, and by Paul and other writers.

- What of some of the precepts that do not fall into these categories, as neither clearly annulled nor part of the natural law - e.g. the clothing regulations you mentioned? I think they are implicitly annulled in Acts Chapter 15, and some of Paul's writings against those who wanted gentile Christians to keep the Jewish Law. Christians have never observed them from then on. Well, there might be exceptions here and there.
smiley - smiley
It's clearly not an easy matter, especially the invasion of the land of Caanan. But I can at least say, read the New Testament.


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 102

mrfins99

When you get older, I suspect you will take less of a radical view.
I am older. I am more careful not to offend the sensibilities (religious and otherwise) of other people than I was at 17.

The Bible reflects the view of people at various time periods in human history. Mark Twain certainly believed that man had created God is his own image. Seems reasonable to me.

Look at the world situation throughout history and tell me how we have improved as human creatures, morally and spiritually, through religious experience. If we have at all, it doesn't seem to dominate world society today. Mankind's view of the Bible and other so-called "holy"
books arguably has not made a lasting improvement to the human condition. We are on the brink of destroying the earth. It is a race
between mankind destroying it with weapons or fossil fuel use.

It will be interesting to see which destroys it first.

mrfins99


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 103

docsharp

Might be a bit late in this conversation but,

Christian means follower of Christ, yeh?

Anyone hear of Christ reading the Bible?? Nope!

He read the Torah and it was like he already knew it anyway.

I think that the Muslim's have it about right with the principle behind the Haj.... Pay attention to what's going on in the world today. and I believe that if Jesus, or Mohamud(PBUH) or any of the other prophets were around today, they'd agree.

By the way 1+1+1=1 if you assume that the one on the right of the brackets is of a different Base, or dimension.(Like where God is)

In this day and age we are all familiar with the term Avatar, that's also a Hindu term which could have similar properties to a prophet in Christian/Muslim ideology. Muslims appear to despise materialism or material things being worshiped as God, that seems right and wrong at the same time, we are as humans material beings and look to physical things as signs and for guidance. Was Mohamud not a material being, not worshiped but respected?

Back on subject , the Bible is a material thing, as is the Quran

As a Christian I follow Christ and worship God, just like Jesus did.

Do we worship what we love or what we fear?

I think that the big deal was that we worship God and avoid the curse.

Some of us had the snip to remind us of that un!

So we should fear the curse and Love God.

And take the Bible with a pinch of salt curtosey of Lotts missus.smiley - cool



i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 104

jdjdjd

"Do we worship what we love or what we fear?

I think that the big deal was that we worship God and avoid the curse"

What a lovely philosophy! The God you believe in is just a bully - "worship me or suffer".


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 105

DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me!

<>

It's actually a lot more complex than that... but how long have you got?

smiley - biggrin

Vicky


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 106

docsharp

Hi Vicky,

I hear what you're saying, but does this make parents bullies when they tell us that we must do our homework or we'll never get anywhere in life.

Doing homework is like a form of worship kinda,

And the prospect of getting no where in life well, that's a curse.

they tell you to do your homework out of love and a hope that you get on well. And no they are not called bullies for doing so.

In a standard contract, the client sees work needs to be done, he gets a contractor who agrees to carry out the work for some remuneration, obviously there are penalties for not doing the work properly.

Not everyone is involved in the same contract, 'cause that'd be stupid, working on more than one contract at a time delays things for one or the other client. There are usually damages for Delay but this contractor believes that he can spare some time, so go on explain how complicated it is and I'll see if we can fit anything in without upsetting the client!smiley - biggrin


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 107

DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me!

I think there might be a bit of a misunderstanding here, docsharp, because to judge by your homework analogy, I think you and I are probably in agreement on the issue of worship!

Vicky


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 108

docsharp

Hi Vicky,

The more complicated we make things the easier it is to have a missunderstanding. I like to keep it simple where possible, hope I haven't said too much already.

Cheers,

doc (P.S. I'm not a real doctor that's just a nickname and you don't want to know where I got itsmiley - biggrin)


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 109

jdjdjd

"I hear what you're saying, but does this make parents bullies when they tell us that we must do our homework or we'll never get anywhere in life.

Doing homework is like a form of worship kinda,"

In *no way whatsoever* is homework a kind of worship.

If the God of the bible just said "Just be nice to one another, do good and don't do harm", leaving us to work out the details, I doubt many people would have an issue with Him (apart, of course, from His probable non-existance). But the God (especially of the OT) demands *worship* and ritual, and it is in the manner of worship and ritual - the manner in which you are supposed to worship Him - that much of the problem arises. The idea of God as parent is a nonsense anyway. Show me a parent who would condemn a child to an eternity of suffering for the "crime" of disobedience and I'll show you a psychopath.

"And the prospect of getting no where in life well, that's a curse."

No, that's not a curse. A curse is the damnation threatened several times in the New Testament. It is the variety of tortures, genocides and general calamities inflicted on the enemies of the Israelites, or on disobedient Israelites in the Old Testament. A parent can - should - still love a child who doesn't fulfil their potential. A parent can and should love a child who maybe disappoints them. A parent can and should be present without playing guessing games as to their identity and character and whether or not they really, in fact, exist. This is a poor metaphor.

"they tell you to do your homework out of love and a hope that you get on well. And no they are not called bullies for doing so."

But if they insisted that you left them regular gifts, and that they were not ever to question your decisions or reasons for fear of eternal punishment, they indeed would be bullies.


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 110

docsharp

I thought this subject was saying how wrong the Bible is. It is your own opinion as to what is and is not worship. Not what's written in some book.....Define worship, and then you will be able to explain to yourself how study is worship.
Studying is getting to know something, to know something well is to love it (unless it's bad and then how would you know unless you study it?)

Getting to know who you are working for is priceless.

I think that it is not the parent who demands gifts these days!

The Bible on a literal interpretation is wrong, but then it's easy to make literal interpretations.

And how do you know so well every single thing about a curse, of your list you did not mention the main curse that is put in place... which is fear. It's a simple little thing but you didn't mention it, why?



i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 111

jdjdjd

"It is your own opinion as to what is and is not worship. Not what's written in some book.....Define worship, and then you will be able to explain to yourself how study is worship."

How about looking in a dictionary?

"NOUN: 1a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object. b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed. 2. Ardent devotion; adoration. 3. often Worship Chiefly British Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.
VERB: Inflected forms: wor·shiped or wor·shipped, wor·ship·ing or wor·ship·ping, wor·ships or wor·ships

TRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To honor and love as a deity. 2. To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See synonyms at revere1.
INTRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To participate in religious rites of worship "

(http://www.bartleby.com/61/4/W0230400.html)

*Not* doing homework, which is a chore or a task, but would take some special kind of doublethink to be classed as worship. Redefining words is a dishonest way to argue.

"The Bible on a literal interpretation is wrong, but then it's easy to make literal interpretations."

How, exactly, do you discern what is literal and what metaphorical? Is the story of Adam and Eve literal? If not, did Jesus redeem us from a metaphor? It seems that everything that hasn't already been disproven or rendered absurd can be taken literally. What *method* do you use to distinguish - and how is this any better than that of other interpretations of your bible, many of which *are* more literal than yours?

"And how do you know so well every single thing about a curse, of your list you did not mention the main curse that is put in place... which is fear. It's a simple little thing but you didn't mention it, why?"

I don't claim to know "every single thing" - I leave making absurd overreaching claims to preachers, who claim without evidence to have the ear of a divine creator of everything, despite there being no evidence even that He exists. The main curse of the bible is that of "original sin", which is manifestly unfair. Adam and Eve disobey and the whole of humanity is cursed. If you think I am claiming this without justification, take a look at the bible.


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 112

docsharp

If you have to rely on a dictionary then you are relying one someone elses interpretation, not your own. Words go into a dictionary after they have been used for some time, and their definitions that got into the dictionary are restricted. True they can open your mind to an extent but the also close it if you then decide that is all.
Do you think that Jaberwock came out of the dictionary, or the word Vampire,that went in there ages after it was first coined.

I don't think that I am advocating reading the Bible in any case, I just don't think that if you do go looking in it you should go there looking for blame, or with hate or fear or anger, cuase you'll come out with even more of what you went in there for.

Some people believe that the crucifiction was an allegory, some belived that Christ was merely an Avatar.

The "original sin" was not the curse of the Bible, the idea of it was propbably more like it. An idea being something you think. Make people think the same thing bad about another group and you get conflict, simple.


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 113

jdjdjd

"If you have to rely on a dictionary then you are relying one someone elses interpretation, not your own. Words go into a dictionary after they have been used for some time, and their definitions that got into the dictionary are restricted."

Agreed that words are defined by common usage, and that dictionary definitions sometimes are slow to reflect recent changes, but the meaning of the word "worship" is not applicable to "doing homework" under any reasonable definition in current usage.

The usage in this discussion of "doing homework" as a synonym for "worship" is dishonest because it is an ad hoc coinage precisely to get out of an embarrassing logical fit.

If I was to redefine "Christian" as "evil, deceitful paedophile" and then say "See! Christians are evil - by definition", I will have lied to you.

Words mean things and it is wrong to change a word's meaning because you find it disproves your argument.


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 114

docsharp

I could take that as you trying to suggest that I am trying to lie or missguide. That is untrue.

I was merely trying to open someones mind to a possible interpretation.

To fit a definition to something closes peoples mind to other possibilities.

Worship only meaning what it is defined as in the Dictionary is a closed definition, people could often do with being a bit more open minded about things. My definition in the analogy works for me and others too. The feeling of a word is not encapsulated in a dictionary definition at all, so dictionary definitions lack a dimension.


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 115

DA ; Simply Vicky: Don't get pithy with me!

<>

Do you not get, jdjdjd, that it was an *analogy*?

Vicky



i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 116

badger party tony party green party

Homework is *like* worship in some ways.

There are broadly set times and amounts of it at regulated intervals.

That's about as far as the analogy can be usefully taken.

Worship is for the benefit of of others not the person doing it.

Homework is enforced by real cunsures in most cases, if your homework is not completed you will not complete your course. however unlike worship you can get someone to do your homework for you.

GCSE's like them or not are real...gods on the other handsmiley - erm

Victoria Climbie was forced into religious rituals that eventually killed her. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1102191.stm

No parents or gaurdians would be lead to believe that the school wants them to beat their children for not doing their home work properly some churches do advocate exocisms for evil children.smiley - blue

one love


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 117

docsharp

No Vicky,

I didn't get jdjdjd, what is it supposed to mean?

If that was you changing your name as some kind of trick then that is a bit deceptive. As a joke oh! Chortle chortle.

When you go to school are you not just worshipping at the font of all knowledge?

Or do you just do that for the benefit of your parents?

Worship is not for the benefit of others if you do it properly by your own definition, that being the definition of the person doing it in the first place.

Part of what people usually define as worship is going to Church, temple or Mosque, but you go to these places to worship. The reason it is done in these buildings is it's where groups can get together to find out about what God was like 2000-7000 years ago. If you were to believe in God then he made everything, including..... the font of all knowledge. So you go to school to find out about what God's been doing with his time over as much time as they want you to teach you about up until the present date, you even get to speculate a bit about the future sometimes.

But Oh of course it's a lot easier to contemplate if you just take everything as read, and of course God doesn't really exist he's just a figment of some people's imagination. Or maybe that's what he'd like you to believe? It really doesn't matter in the end does it?

Oh I've expended all my logic.....poofsmiley - laugh


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 118

docsharp

That was a very sad case for Victoria.

You don't half get some nutters around, this idea of someone being the devil incarnate is absolutely ridiculous.

I can't believe that some people are still preaching that drivel, it is like 2007 isn't it?

For some people The Bible is most definately wrong and evil,

Especially when taken out of context. However for some it is right and kind.

And to say you can't have it both ways, is like saying "you can't have your cake and eat it."

Tell me what is the point of having cake if you can't eat it?smiley - erm


i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 119

badger party tony party green party

Look out for the name changesthere will be a lot of them this being halloween and a thread with Vicky/Della/Adelaied/Adele/Persephony/butterflybulldust in it.

Still its easy to tell who's who just by clicking on the names and checking the personal space of the poster.

It can get really confusing thought when people open other accounts and pretend to be their own sister



"When you go to school are you not just worshipping at the font of all knowledge?

Or do you just do that for the benefit of your parents?smiley - book

Like I said there are simularities between worship and education. Not least because of the room set up ranks and files of initiates looking toward a teacher/preacher. This is mainly because in the ancient world the richest people with the money to spare on teaching classses were the religious orders and they set up education after the model of religion.

Lots of children I see in the schools where I work are in actual fact merely there because the law forces them to go and it is for their parents benefit or fines and jail time could follow if the dont attend.


"Part of what people usually define as worship is going to Church, temple or Mosque, but you go to these places to worship.smiley - book

No actually they dont define worship the churches and the bilgeble define what constitutes worship people tend to follow suit aside fromt he hippy type christians who declare that communing with nature is worship or whatever they ramble on about.

"The reason it is done in these buildings is it's where groups can get together to find out about what God was like 2000-7000 years ago.smiley - book

We dont need to go there we can sit at home with a hard copy or online bilgble and read about his murder of innocent children or how he set up Adam and Eve for failure in the garden of Eden. Why do we have to go anywhere to find that out?


"If you were to believe in God then he made everything, including..... the font of all knowledge.smiley - book

You're right "If" I were to believe in the bigG...


"So you go to school to find out about what God's been doing with his time over as much time as they want you to teach you about up until the present date, you even get to speculate a bit about the future sometimes.smiley - book

Wrong I and most of the kids I knew went to school because it was funsmiley - football sometimes interesting and because my parents or other member of my family took me to the gates every morning and the teachers locked us in till home time. Later when i could decid wheter i actually went to school went scrumping, shoplifting or trying to cop-off with girls my attendace rates nose-dived.


"But Oh of course it's a lot easier to contemplate if you just take everything as read, and of course God doesn't really exist he's just a figment of some people's imagination.smiley - book

smiley - erm You're trying to suggest I take everything as read because I *dont* take everything as read that is written in the bilgblesmiley - huh

There is no of course about it. Struggled unde rhte aprehension that the bigG and the bilgeble were true for many years. Fortunately while I was at school I became aquainted with enough facts and a rudimentary grasp of logic that allowed me to work out that god is just a name people give to a figment of the imagination or funny feeling that a lot of humans share. Now the funny feeling is given different names and mythologies in different places but its is all just nothing more than emotional dizziness.



"Oh I've expended all my logic.....poofsmiley - laughsmiley - book

smiley - laugh Did'nt take long, did it?

one l;ove smiley - rainbow




i don't care who or what takes offence at this. The bible is wrong and evil!!!!

Post 120

docsharp

No I wasn't suggesting at all that you take anything as read in the Bilgible at all, good term that.smiley - winkeye

Although I am sure that it is written somewhere....oh can't think where that God is just a dellusion. (not sure that's spelt right but couldn't realy give a rats....)smiley - biggrin

Sure that even the man himself would have had difficulty making a blind man see, if the man didn't want to see in the first place.smiley - cool

Sure you see well enough anyways! smiley - smiley

By the way who do you think invented football and all of those other things we enjoy so much. Yes supposedly that includes women, drugs and booze.smiley - cheers And don't say the English invented footy 'cause I've just read that the Japanese used to play something similar 3k years ago.

Oh and the trouble with logic is that it never really gets expended, sometimes I've just got to shut down quick so I tried to make up a reasonable excuse, that'd give someone a laugh, 'cause that's what it's all about isn't it?

c'mon then what was the jdjdjd all about then?


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