h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

The Pledge of Allegiance has been an issue for as long as I can remember. The questionable nature of the 'under God' part was put aside when I was a child - we just weren't required to say it in schools, and I thought it had been phased out entirely.

It's not just atheists and agnostics who have a problem with this. Any American who doesn't worship the Christian god should be offended by this pledge - especially when you consider that the U.S. was founded on the basis of freedom of religion. Christianity, with the support of the neo-conservatives, is close to becoming the state religion.

When I was in elementary school, one of my best friends was a jehovah's witness. His faith precluded him from saying the pledge. When it was time to say the pledge he had to go to the back of the room by the bathrooms. I'm sure he felt stigmatized because of this.

I've recently seen many polls that state something along the lines of 9 of 10 people polled prefer keeping 'under god' in the pledge. Well, as has been pointed out in this thread before, this country is NOT a democracy but a democratic republic. The majority does not and should not rule in all decisions. That is why the First Amendment states "Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." This is specifically stated in this way to protect a citizen from the majority. I've heard it stated that 'under god' is merely a patriotic statement referring to the spiritual beliefs of the 'founding fathers' of this country. But I'll bet when among their own those saying that will make statements marginalizing those they consider 'heathens' and 'godless'. I grew up in the Southern Baptist church and I remember sermons on the evils of athiesm and especially Madelyn Murray O'Hare. She was apparently the incarnation of satan on Earth (A wonderful bit of ironic logic there). This type of religious prejudice is not limited to the pulpits. I've talked to people I knew other wise to be level headed free thinkers (conservatives yes, but that's not necessarily a bad word in my opinion) but when the subject of the ten commandments in the court house, or 'under god' in the pledge is broached any arguments against it are met with a steadfast refusal to budge. I actually heard this argument conserning the ten commandments when I argued that they do not reflect the beliefs of all who enter the courthouse "Well they just reflect the laws of god and everyone has there own god." This person either didn't fully understand athiesm or buddhism or they didn't care. I'm certain many in this country would agree with the idea that if one doesn't believe in god then they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

> I'm sure he felt stigmatized because of this.

I'm not surprised. I knew a couple of kids who had to step outside the classroom when the pledge was said, when we were in kindergarten. They got teased by the other kids because of their difference.

> I'm certain many in this country would agree with the idea that if one doesn't believe in god then they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

I find it really frightening that a majority of the people in this country would be too blind to recognize that they're stifling the religious beliefs of the minority.

Whether the founding fathers believed in the Christian God or not, many of them were Deists, rather than specifically Protestant, Lutheran, Catholic, etc. Benjamin Franklin, for instance, believed in the existence of God, but was not a Christian. He thought that God, being an omnipotent deity, wouldn't be so petty as to require his/her people to worship in a specific way.

ask them in fa faluga

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I am a Christian, but I do not believe in stifling the views of those who are not. In education for instance - the Education Act here says "Free, secular and compulsory" - I get very agitated when some schools overstep the secular mark...

for me th the problem wasn't god but to "a flag" it's one te thing to die for or a god king or country but ridiculous to die for a piece of cloth<

I haven't read all the backlog, so this may have been brought up before, but isn't it worrying that we have a pledge of allegiance in the first place? And what was that Eddie Izzard said about us and the Romans having the chest salute in common? How many other nations have a pledge, and why, I wonder?

The only time a oath of loyalty applies in the UK is to the Armed Forces, Police and Members of Parliament. The oath is to HM The Queen, her heirs and successors. Religion doesn't come into it. The oath is normally take on The Bible but there are alternatives for non-Christians. Then it is usually called an affirmation.

Which is rather strange as Britain does have an Established Religion with the Queen as its head.

Donald

That's something that has always boggled me as an American. You guys have inconsistencies like everyone else, but they are out there in the open and you all seem quite tongue-in-cheek about it, as though to say, 'why yes, we do have a monarch, how nice that you noticed,' as opposed to our democracy that's anything but what we say or think it is.

~*~It's not just atheists and agnostics who have a problem with this. Any American who doesn't worship the Christian god should be offended by this pledge - especially when you consider that the U.S. was founded on the basis of freedom of religion. Christianity, with the support of the neo-conservatives, is close to becoming the state religion.~*~

I don't have a single thing against it beyond what I have against the rest of the pledge. Namely that it's drilled in to your head from kindergarten. When you have absolutely no idea what it means, or why you're saying it. It shouldn't be permitted to make people swear allegiance to anything until they know exactly what that entails.

~*~I'm certain many in this country would agree with the idea that if one doesn't believe in god then they shouldn't be allowed to vote.~*~

Not to bash on you or anything, but I have never heard this opinion before in my life. And you'd think I would've too, since I'm one of the few who actually don't believe in God.

> I am a Christian, but I do not believe in stifling the views of those who are not.

Della, you're an educated Christian. Many of the fire-and-brimstone evangelical Christians don't study the Bible, and have very little knowledge of Biblical history. Most of these Christians believe that if you aren't their brand of Christian, you won't get to go to heaven. People like that give Christianity a bad name!

> It shouldn't be permitted to make people swear allegiance to anything until they know exactly what that entails.

That's a good point. I know the pledge because I was forced to memorize it in kindergarten. I wish they had done the same for the multiplication tables; I had to force myself to memorize those in the third grade. Asking a bunch of kindergarteners to pledge their total loyalty to a country of which they know very little about is... well... a little like indoctrination.

heheh, the best bit is when the Queen goes north of the border, into Scotland, she changes both her name/title and the denomination of chritianity she belongs to. She goes from being Queen Elizabeth II and member of the Anglican/Episcapalian (sp?) church and becomes Elizabeth Queen of Scotts and member of the Church of Scotland, which is a reformed chirch.

Note she's Elizabeth the first in Scotland, I think it's the only part of the UK in which she is Elizabeth I.

I'll match that, and raise you "I think its weird for people to pledge alleigance to something without having first seen the alternatives".

Mr. X, there's a reason you haven't heard that opinion before... I just thought of it... It reflects my thoughts on the arguments I was hearing from some conservatives and the opinion polls I had seen. I'm not saying most would agree with that idea but I definitely believe that many would (many being a wonderfully amorphous word) I wish I'd had a to have added to that.

But it really was frightening for me during the Ten Commandments brouhaha a few months back... There was one coworker that heard me explain my thoughts on the topic. I later heard from another coworker what the first thought of my opinions. I don't think she trusts me not tear down her church if left to my own devices now! It was nearly that analogous to her that removing a religious icon from a government building was tantamount to banning all religion! What they refuse to see is that putting any religous icon in a government building gives tacit preferential approval of the beliefs that icon represents over differing beliefs. They feel ok with it because they share the beliefs displayed... When I asked how they would feel if some other icon was thusly displayed, say a giant statue of Ganesh or Kali, they honestly don't give it a thought because the idea is so foreign to them as to be comical... they really have NO empathy for people with widely varied beliefs from their own. They argue that the ten commandments is nondenominational and could be interpreted to be the ideals that any god would set forth for his people, or that 'under god' can be interpreted for anyone's god. (They really have even less understanding of Kali than I do). But even with their limited understanding of world religions, the idea of Athiesm in this country is almost analogous to that of all those baby sacrificing satanists we're always hearing about!

They believe that as long as someone believes in a god then it's probably just a confused version of their god... "But, God Forbid, someone should not believe in ANY god!"

~*~the idea of Athiesm in this country is almost analogous to that of all those baby sacrificing satanists we're always hearing about!~*~

What's strange is that we never actually ~see~ them. To my knowledge there are none in prison, nor have any been given capital punishment, nor have any gone fugitive to other countries, nor have any been identified, nor have any...

Do any Amricans have incompetant booking mechanisms for major summer festivals...

I have been trying to get tickets for GLastonbury for the last 7 hours both online and on the phone; not once have I managed to look like I might be even near booking a ticket... this sucks...

You poor thing. Somebody help the boy out.