h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

People refer to the placebo effect which is a disease that is observed to get better with a dummy treatment is given.

That has been proven, we know that it happens. What we don;t know is the mechanism.

We know that general anaesthetics work, but we don't know the exact mechanism for some of them. That doesn't stop us using them.

again

>>Well that's why I'm saying people shouldn't just bandy the word around as if everyone knows what it is.<<

People do know what it is and can describe its effects. We can also prove it works, we just don't know *why* yet - there's plenty of things we can say this about.

And I agree that people do bandy about the term placebo effect instead of looking for the true cause of improvement. (Regression to the mean and poor reporting).

This is why I keep an open mind.

When the woman did that thing to make the wart go away, I felt something *click* in my mind, and I knew it would go.

Any doctor will just say, 'Oh placebo'.

(Mind over mind)

I assume (but don't know) that the reason most over-the-counter medicines (asprin, paracetemol, etc) have a dose that is two pills not one is to give added placebo ooomph to a real pharmacological effect. Likewise, things like branded flu medicines tend to be in brightly coloured capsules, and again, I assume that's to add placebo-power to the pharmacology. If I worked for pharma, big or small, I'd do that.

I am fascinated by placebo.

Then.... how many people get placebo side-effects? "May cause headaches, may cause nausea, may cause sleeplessness" etc. Never read the small print...!

Ben

I rather think the 'two pills' not one is more likely to be to reduce the risk of an overdose by having less active ingredient in a single pill. And also it makes it easier to have a child-friendly dose if necessary.

B

Grrr.... you and your rationality.

I'm sure Bayer are very interested in your placebo-conspiracy theory, though...

B

"Turmeric, ginger and cinnamon are spices, not herbs." [Mu Beta]

I don't distinguish between herbs and spices when I'm cooking. Do you think I should? [That's hypothetical. Don't worry about it ]

In any event, the substances I put forward were the first ones that came to mind. In this fast-moving thread, which seems to generate 60 posts in less than two hours, there's no way I can keep up with the discussion, given that I have erands to run and cooking to do. I didn't think of mentioning digitalis, but Edward the Bonobo did the me the favor of mentioning it. Thanks! Ergotamine is something I used to take for migraine headaches. I always thought it came
from a mold. Which category would mold fall under, herbs or spices?

In the Middle Ages, moss from the skull of a hanged man was supposed to be a remedy for something [can't remember what]. A few centuries later, when Egyptian mummies were being exhumed and imported into Egypt, medicinal preparations were made from the mummies. These are probably extreme examples of fallacious rememdies, but I use them to make the point that eventually the most flagrantly useless remedies are abandoned, as the two I mentioned were.

That leaves the "remedies" that seem to work. Perhaps digitalis and curcumin passed the test of scientific scrutiny, and were invited over to the side of conventional Western-style medicine. Maybe the homeopathy that once championed them should get some credit....

Ben, you've mentioned that Alzheimers might be rare in India because the average life span is about 60. I don't know how to answer this, as I didn't get a detailed description of the study that praised the effect od curcumin. I assume that scientists will adjust for such things as life span, but I don't know for sure in this case....

@Ben:

The non-existent (as it were - obviously they do exist) side-effects are called nocebo.

And we don't know how they work either.

We can guess the placebos (or nocebos) *probably* don't work by woo-woo. At very least we know we're putting a chemical into the body. We know that chemicals interact with other chemicals, even if we don't know which or how. There is a putative mechanism. This is not the case when we are talking about putting very probably no chemicals into a body, dangling a crystal or sticking a birthday candle in your ear.

I'm fairly sure imagining a unicorn works, though. (NLP reference for Ben. )

Ignore last. Garbled. Try:

@Ben:

The non-existent (as it were - obviously they do exist) side-effects are called nocebo.

And we don't know how they work either.

We can guess the placebos (or nocebos) *probably* don't work by woo-woo. At very least we know we're altering the chemicals in the brain. We know that chemicals interact with other chemicals, even if we don't know which or how. There is a putative mechanism. when we put very probably no chemicals into a body, dangle a crystal or stick a birthday candle in our ear they have no known interaction other than via the brain..

I'm fairly sure imagining a unicorn works too. (NLP reference for Ben. )

You should probably look out for something called Nux Vomica. That's a homepathic remedy which I believe contains strychnine and curare. If they don't dilute that properly, you could be in trouble.

I would prefer to avoid it altogether.

Rat poison, on the other hand.... I'm told that Coumadin, which is used for thinning the blood so as to avoid blot clots and strokes, is chemically similar to rat poison. Obviously, getting the dosage exactly right is of paramount importance for the clinics where coumadin is prescribed.

Rat poison can also be used to thin the blood. Hence it's use in nail bombs, to ensure the victims are more likely to bleed to death. Who knows, maybe it's the thinning of the blood that kills the rats as well.

It's called nux vomica because it makes you vomit yer nuts up.

But aren't there other things that woulddo the same thing without the danger of poisoning?

There is no remedy left in homoeopathic remedies.

"Oscillococcinum, a 200C product "for the relief of colds and flu-like symptoms," involves "dilutions" that are even more far-fetched. Its "active ingredient" is prepared by incubating small amounts of a freshly killed duck's liver and heart for 40 days. The resultant solution is then filtered, freeze-dried, rehydrated, repeatedly diluted, and impregnated into sugar granules. If a single molecule of the duck's heart or liver were to survive the dilution, its concentration would be 1 in 100^200. This huge number, which has 400 zeroes, is vastly greater than the estimated number of molecules in the universe."

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html

Assuming it's done right.