h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

The website http://www.ijtihad.org/Quran.htm says
Abu Ghraib represents the physical and psychological torture of a few Muslims, Quran desecration represents the spiritual, emotional and psychological torture of all Muslims. Even if it turns out that the Newsweek report was false, most people will see it as a cover up and another American attempt to eschew accountability.
There were reports (perhaps wrong) which stated that at both Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo worse thing were being done to the Quran than burning.
Whether this was done to break someones spirit and show them that they could expect no help from their god or not, it still is wrong and degrades the person stooping to such crass means of interogation.

>>I'd have complete confidence that my neighbours would assume such a thing was the work of a nutjob weirdo<<

Precisely Effers, your neighbours would have no trouble believing it was you.

I agree with Ed, anyone who can't think of situations where freedom of speech is strongly restricted is being exceptionally naive and you don't even have to resort to the old 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre example. I'm very restricted with what I can and can't say to my students, despite the fact that some of them are over 18 and legally adults. It's not something that ends at the school gates either - it's a permanent restriction so long as I remain in post. It's also not just an employment thing - teachers can be and have been sent to prison for stuff they've said to kids.

There are restrictions to freedom of speech everywhere and the nature of a free and functioning democracy is to debate where the limits are. Some of the restrictions are obviously very important while others are less so. While the Americans refer to their First Amendment as the bastion of free speech but an oft-quoted refrain is folk must work together to create a more perfect union: the Constitution is a good starting point but it was never intended to be definitive. That takes people to compromise, debate, review and renew.

And part of the debate is that some people may shout &#39;Bloody unfair!&#39; at the application of the law. Not all of those people will have *understood* the law or why we have it: oftentimes people don&#39;t think things through before leaping to a conclusion - but that does not make it a bad law.

I noticed also at work ( a retail sales chain) in the break room a few months back their was a printed notice concerning Social Media (Facebook,Twitter, etc) that said denigrading or slandering a co-worker or manager on-line would be a violation of company rules and could lead to disciplinary action.
so you see these limits even exist here in virtual space.

This weekend. songs may well be sung about wading in Fenian blood. Can we trust that nobody will be fired up by these into doing something awful? If they do - will the singers bear any responsibility?

<>

I think it's a grave mistake to think that it's the songs that will inspire the inevitable violence. Taking away the songs won't lessen the hatred the bigot brothers have for each other - all it will do is satisfy the politicians that "Look - we fixed the problem".

The West of Scotland sectarianism is a good angle actually. Two groups of people artificially seperated by religion, brought up to think the other lot are different. One side educated in religiously-segregated schools even when this means being bussed for tens of miles away from their neighbours each day. For all that, the vast majority get on with their lives without a second thought to sectarianism and react with hurt and outrage if the finger is pointed at their "community" when violence breaks out.

Does the Old Firm match perpetuate the sectarian hatred or is it a pressure relief valve? Would disbanding both teams make the problem go away? Is the violence actually sectarian or is it normal football hatred writ large? There are uber-violent derbies the world over, why do we focus upon the Glasgow version? I dare say there's just as much violence at Aston Villa - Birmingham games.

What I'm getting at is the tribalistic nature of some people will always find an outlet, sometimes violent. However you dress it up and look for excuses it's just in-group and out-group behaviour. The pitiful excuses dragged in front of the courts like Ryan and Choudry are pretty pathetic examples of humanity - violent, brainwashed, petty thugs. Giving them a sense of victimhood by creating special crimes for them doesn't help imo. They and their supporters feed off this. Jailing Ryan for breach of the peace would have sufficed instead of adding in this "religiously-aggravated" nonsense.

"No Mr Ryan, you are not a Christian Freedom Fighter railing against Islamic extremism - you're a very naughty boy!"

>>I think it&#39;s a grave mistake to think that it&#39;s the songs that will inspire the inevitable violence.

I somewhat agree...although this weekend is maybe a special case, what with the nail bombs.

>>Does the Old Firm match perpetuate the sectarian hatred or is it a pressure relief valve?

Oh, it&#39;s stoked up, surely? It&#39;s laughed off as banter, part of the game. That sells tickets.

>>Would disbanding both teams make the problem go away?

Not entirely, perhaps. But take the other consequence of the Old Firm game: the *massive* upsurge in domestic violence (I know someone who can quote chapter and verse on this). Do you think this is saved up for match days, or is there a causal link? Now I&#39;m not proposing banning football as a solution to domestic violence, simply pointing out that it almost certainly stokes both domestic and religious violence.

If the clubs were sensible, they&#39;d be making more than their token effort to clamp down on the nonsense.

>>Is the violence actually sectarian or is it normal football hatred writ large?

Hah! That&#39;s a tricky one. Chicken and egg. It&#39;s like trying to talk about violence against Muslims while ignoring the fact that many come from Pakistan. Are Gers fans bothered about transubstantiation? I think not. On the other hand, the stupid football thing is inextricably linked to other malignancies in West Central Scotland. I speak as someone who didn&#39;t (officially) get Good Friday off because my office shares a site with a traditionally Protestant company.

&#39;Writ large&#39;. Nail bombs are as large as it can get, eh?

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I asked the question (it was a question, not an opinion) to open up a new avenue. Sometimes such questions might have to be settled before a judge, not a lowly magistrate (In Ryan&#39;s case a low-ranking judge - really a superannuated lawyer - sitting as a stipendiary) .

The Ryan case was, I feel, more clear cut. It fell in the category of &#39;Asking for it&#39;. Assuming a law of racially aggravated harassment is legitimate (question?) there was no option but to prosecute. I&#39;m satisfied that it was straightforward enough to be dealt with in a magistrate&#39;s court. Ryan of course had the right to take it to a jury. This would have been in a court presided over by a more highly trained judge with the sophistication to address whether the charge was appropriate.

I&#39;m happy if others have other opinions. I&#39;m happy if mine is wrong. But people (no names no pack drill) should at least make an effort to understand how this stuff works before harrumphing that it&#39;s unfair and quoting a Dickens charicature.

>>racially aggravated harassment

Oops.

But there&#39;s no legal distinction. We say one or the other simply because they trip off the tongue better.

<>

Oh trust me, I *know* about the increase in domestic violence after games. I tend to think that the games are such highly-charged, emotional occasions that the pressure-pot explodes anyway without adding the sectarian ingredient. I suspect that there will be an increase in domestic violence in Fife this weekend after the crucial Pars-Rovers game.

Just idle speculation, but I wonder if Scotland's sectarian problems have led to us being markedly more accepting of other cultures than England? The Nats position is broadly "If you choose to settle in Scotland, you're Scottish" and I would go along with that. It's more integrational than multicultural (despite the "one nation, many cultures" slogan). We certainly seem to understand the problems of religious divides a bit more than England (the Scottish civil war was religious after all).

Well my understanding is that the domestic violence peak is far higher for the Old Firm game than for others. It doesn&#39;t seem that the supercharging is from football alone. Granted, the Old Firm are also by far the biggest teams so there&#39;s more at stake - but I doubt that entirely accounts for it either As I say, it&#39;s a bit chicken and egg, but sectarianism and football nigh on inseparable. There&#39;s too much denial about this. All fun and games until some fifteen year old gets stabbed to death for wearing the wrong colour.

Interesting speculation...but I don&#39;t buy the old &#39;Scotland doesn&#39;t do racism, only bigotry&#39; line. It seems peculiar, even, to ponder why Scotland doesn&#39;t isn&#39;t big on racism (although there&#39;s a lot of denial about the racism that does occur.) Maybe the puzzle is why it is more on the agenda elsewhere. Anti-racism is the natural condition, surely? (I don&#39;t think the tongueincheek smiley works in Barlesque.)

I&#39;m not sure we can assume that Scotland has learned from the lessons of history. That hardly ever happens. There must be some more fundamental socio-economic factor . (Well - you already know I&#39;m a Marxist, so you shouldn&#39;t be surprised if I try to boil everything down to socio-economic factors.) My speculation is that because Scotland has not been a landowning society, we&#39;re forced to be self-made people. We know what ladders we have to climb and we leave them in place for others. It&#39;s only sensible.

Note that I say &#39;We&#39;. Thank you for quoting the Nats&#39; definition of Scottishness. I thought it would complicate things if I mentioned earlier to Effers what had inspired my definition of Britishness.

Ed,
I hate to add to the chorus of complaints about your use
of Barlesque but let me suggest you simply avoid quotes
and other punctuation if you won't change the URL to one
of the old /dna/ skins.

I confess that having to work out what all the &@39s represent
really gets in the way of understanding. Your posts are the
product of a deep mind and well thought out so most of us
are already working hard to grasp the fullness of your true
meanings without having to decode or presume what the words
are.

It's a pain I know, but after you log on just add dna to the
URL and it should give you a page we can read more easily.

Here's another link to the h2g2 front page in alabaster.
Bookmark it. Change alabaster to brunel if you want to.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/home
Note where the .dna. bit goes.
Please.


~jwf~

>if I mentioned earlier to Effers<

I'd caution you and others about referring to me in that way again..such a post may well be yikesed as the BBC have decided that it is no longer acceptable. I presume they are protecting people from being offended.

theres a turkish lager called Effes!!!!

Effes beer is great. I virtually lived off the stuff when I visited Turkey..and my local Turkish Cypriot shop has it..or at least they used to..I must see if they still stock it when I go there tomorrow.

I'd think of changing to that..but Aunty is tricky to read these days. And it might be construed as advertising. I know they now allow product placement in their output..but still.

I need to come up with something really inoffensive I think. Flying Ants is a no no as they've all left.

I'll stay with this for now. It's honest...more honest than describing a dead horse as an obstacle.

its sold by weatherspoons as well

one of the cheaper options considering its a full 500cl bottle

I'm sorry, but I feel I must disagree in the strongest possible terms . . .












Efes, while well flavoured, is so absolutely lacking in body as to deserve nothing other than the term 'watery' which pretty much completely ruins the drinking experience for me.

a one on a summers day is

What's 'summer'?*


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*a reference to local weather.

the half an hour when it does not snow or rain some time around 20th of august.....in the afternoon

Actually, to be honest, it hasn't snowed here in a few days. It was very pleasant this evening chipping ice of the road with all the neighbours.*

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*Everything in that sentence is entirely true.