h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Useful post, FerretBadger, thanks.

">> How has he betrayed Voldemort in any way?<<

Well, there is that little snag about Snape feeding Voldemort the information which led to his original downfall.

Y."

Ahhh come now Yelbakk, you jest surely?

Think about it Snape was a Death Eater at the time Trewlany made the prophecy, a DE who was a spy, and a DE whos job it was to report on Dumbledore.

He had not yet got a job at the school so was spying as best he could. By his amazing good fortune Dumbledore happened to go to Hogshead for an interview and against all expectation heard a prophecy regarding Voldemorts downfall. Snape overheard some or all of this.

Snape reported what he had heard to Voldemort and a couple of years later Voldemort tried to kill Harry and got kiboshed.

Now forgive me but that does not sound like betrayel to me, that sdounds like someone doing their job. In GOF Voldemort blames himself for what happened for overlooking the protection Lily gave Harry.

Now given what happened in HBP, namely that we hear Sybel Trewlanys account of Snape overhearing her there is some doubt as to how much of the prophecy Snape *actually* overheard.

Was he ejected half way through by the barman (Aberforth?) as Dumbledore tells Harry in OOTP, or did he burst in at the end as Trewlany says? If it is the latter then Snape deliberatly only gave half the prophecy to Voldemort in the hope that someinthg like what happened at Godrics hollow would occur.

In that case the story Dumbledore told Harry was no doubt pretty much for Voldemorts benefit (lets face it after what happened at the Ministry of Magic, Voldy was bound to hitch another lift.), to emphasise to Voldemort that Snape had reported everything he knew. And thus reinforce his position as a double spy.

The point is however eiher position is immaterial,*As far as Voldemort KNOWS* Snape just reported what happened, namely that he heard half a prophecy.

Does anybody think that if Voldemort suspected that Snape had deliberatly lied to him about the Prophecy and specifically caused his downfall that Snape would be anything other than brown bread? Come on really Voldemort would forgive that by Spinners End and Snape would be his fave.

Voldemort say that he doesn't forgive or forget, and there aint no way he would have forgiven or forgot that.

Sorry Elentari, the above a bit better?

Much better, thanks.

Ferretbadger,
my comment was indeed made in a somewhat jestful mood. However, the fact remains that a) Snape's intelligence led, in the long run, to Voldemort spending a certain amount of time as a nonentity, that b) Voldemort does not forgive and forget. At the moment it does seem that Snape successfully convinced Voldemort that he is his (whether he truly is, or not, is of no consequence here). Voldemort does strike me as the kind of person who will return to blaming his subordinates for things they may or may not be guilty of, if some future turn of events should make him angry enough to do so.

In other words: V. is a bit like some people I could mention whom I had the lack of pleasure of working for. As long as things run smooth, you are fine. As soon as something goes wrong, it will be your fault and your fault alone. Events of the past will be "reinterpreted" to make you look bad, rather than, say, your boss.

So whatever Snape may or may not have done to Voldemort, he had better look out and cover his a$$.

Y.

Deffo, especially as HP is going to have a confontation with Voldy, and is about as much use as a chocolate teapot when it comes to occulemency.

Voldy will know the *alternative* version of events surrounding Snape overhearing the prophecy as soon as he next either meets Harry or takes a peek at his thoughts.

Harry almost certainly has not understood the significance of the two different stories. Voldy would in about 2 seconds I reckon.

However as to the point, the argument I made was not that Voldy would never hold Snape responsible for telling him the prophecy (I think that might be quite likely after he learns of the alternative story) but that Snape is most deffo *not* the oathbreaker who will die.

I am afraid once you read OOTP and HBP there is *no way* that the othbreaker is anyone but Karkaroff.... sorry.

>>I am afraid once you read OOTP and HBP there is *no way* that the othbreaker is anyone but Karkaroff.... sorry.<<

I tend to agree. At the end of Goblet, I was sure that Snape "has left [Voldy] forever" while Karkaroff was the coward who would be made to return, pay, and suffer. After Halfblood, this does not seem possible anymore, as you argued quite convincingly... unless, of course, Voldemorts interpretation of the situation during that lovely graveyard scene was not quite correct. At the time of speaking he *might* have had Snape in mind as the oathbreaker. Only to have been corrected some two hours later (when Snape did come to him, as portrayed in Halfblood). But this is all just speculation.

Y.

Thank goodness there will be definitive answers to all of this in the next book. Let's hope, mostly for her sake, that JKR has all of her ducks in a row, or as Ricky Ricardo used to say, she'll have a lot of 'splainin' to do!

Just got through the first meeting of the DADA club at the Hog's Head.

Yep, that sure sounds like a Dumbledore... Harry thinks he looks familiar, tall, skinny, lots of long grey hair, listening to what they're saying.

Missed that compleatly on the first (and second) read.

Smells of goats as well.

Remember Dumbledore tells hagrid how Aberforth was arrested for using an inapropriote charm on a goat!

I forgot that one.

Ok... I've just reread "Spinner's End". Now granted, we can't be sure how much of Snape's tale is misinformation, but I believe it does prove that Snape was NOT in the circle at the rebirth of Voldy. Bellatrix grilled him on this exact point. He did NOT return when the mark burned. He said he returned two hours later on orders from Dumbledore to ensure that he could continue to spy on Dumbledore and the Order. He also says that the Dark Lord had thought he had left him forever, but he was wrong.

Ok.. so he could be lying to Bellatrix about his motives and allegiances. But I don't think he could be lying about whether or not he was in that circle. Everyone had their places in that circle. I'm sure all the D.E.s knew who's spaces were unfilled. And I think those in the circle knew exactly who Voldy was referring to when he said there was one who he felt he had lost forever. But even if that was a bit of misdirection I don't see how Snape could have been at the circle. Sure, Harry might not know who was behind those masks, but the others did. They knew who was missing.

So, I go back to my original statement that Snape was the one possibly lost forever.

Of course this goes no where to prove whether Snape is good or bad. I had always assumed he was good before, but now I'm having more doubts. On this readthrough I'm going on the assumption that he IS bad. I'm wondering, for instance, whether Snape left that pensieve for Harry to use. He left Harry alone with it twice. The first time Harry followed Snape out to see the commotion of Trelawney's sacking. The second time Harry did see the memory of James tormenting Snape. And Snape let Harry see as much as he wanted Harry to see before he removed him. That memory would have been much safer kept inside his head than in that Pensieve, which Snape must have known that Harry was familiar with already. Snape knows Harry is inquisitive and given the chance would use it. So he gave him two chances to be alone with it. He didn't even bother to lock it in his cabinet. That memory of Snape as a schoolboy Harry's age being tormented by his father and friends would be exactly the kind of memory Snape would WANT Harry to see. Sirius did say that Snape never missed an opportunity to jinx James when he got it. He didn't hide those memories in the pensieve. And the upshot is that it gave him a chance to end the occlumency lessons. While Harry never tried to learn occlumency, Snape really never tried very hard to teach him. All he said was to empty his mind of emotions but never taught him any practical methods of doing so. A teenager is very unlikely to be able to empty his mind by will alone. Look at the lengths that devout buddhists, hindus, taoists, aesthetes and the like go through to do so. They don't do it over night on command. Why would Harry be likely to. Snape never shows Harry any exercises to help him.


Oh.... and where is it said that Snape was the one that told the partial prophesy?

Yes, but maybe it's his way of trying to get Harry to understand why they can'T be friends, though he will support him...

Right I dont argue that Snape was in the circle (allthough I contend that up until Spinners end he could have been) but rather that he wasn't the "oathbreaker" who will be killed.

The fact that

a) Snape is alive and still in the Dark Lords favour

and

b) Karkaroff is brown bread

Indicate pretty conclusivly who is who.

"Oh.... and where is it said that Snape was the one that told the partial prophesy?"

Well Trewlany acidently spills to Harry that Snape inturupted her interview with Dumbledore and when Harry quizes Dumbledore he admits that Snape was the spy.

We have to assume that only Snape could have passed on the partial prophecy I tink.

Ah... Ok... That's why I asked. I thought it might be a bit later in HBP...


Yea, as far as the circle a lot of the arguments for that come from that red hen link. And I think at the beginning of that very long diatribe the author mentions that in some places he was on the wrong trail but didn't bother correcting those places.

Anywhoo..

Indeed...

I mean all that stuff about Ludo Bagman is clearly rubbish now.

Does that mean you have not yet finished HBP Count?

I'm rereading the entire canon. I read HBP right away when it was released without rereading the previous 5 books. Now I'm just finished rereading those and am rereading HBP with everything fresh on my mind and much more attention to many of the details I missed (as I wasn't looking for them) the first several times I read them.

For instance, I forgot about Kingsley Shacklebolt when Fudge mentioned him in the first chapter as the P.M.s secretary.

But I'm really looking at mentions of Snape's time line and actions because of many of the things brought up here.

Wish I had the time!