h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"Then he mentions others dead or in Azkaban and then one who he believes has left the fold forever, he will die! This has to be Snape."

erm no. The coward who will die is undoubtably Karkaroff. Who named names and ended up dead at the start of HBP.

The coward was probably Snape (or mayby Bagman).

sorry that should read "traitor who is to die".

Lets face it whatever Snape has done he has not been a traitor. Voldemort *ordered* him to take a post at Hogwarts. Even if he did not allow himself to be summoned by the Dark Mark, that would not be a traitor (thogh it could well be a coward).

Karkaroff was demonstably a traitor. When Voldemort fell hje sold out his fellow death eaters (including Snape remember) to buy his own freedom. He publically renouced the Dark Lord when doing it.

No doubt he is the traitor, Snape may be the coward who is to be punished but no way is he the traitor who must die. If he was then he would be dead.

In the words of Snivellous himself "The Dark Lords word is Law". I dont reckon Voldy got where he is today by pronoucing Death sentances he later revokes.

http://www.redhen-publications.com/Double00Sevie.html

CZ: You might wanna check out this essay. It deals with the Snape vs Voldy at the end of GOF andf is an interesting read.

I was just reading that one too FB, seems to have been changed a bit since I last read it, at least regarding Ludo Bagman. Or maybe there was an entire essay on the coward and the oathbreaker and that's been removed for now... I can't remember to be honest.

Yeah he has removed the "Coward and Oathbreaker" one post HBP, seeing as it is clear whom they refer to.

Namely Snape/Karkaroff.

I'll check that out, and I'll recheck the end of Goblet. I'm fairly sure that Karkaroff was accounted for as running away.

Unfortunately I don't have that book with me at the moment.

Karkaroff did run away, but we are told in HBP that he turned up dead.

Snape demonstably (post HBP) is not only not dead, but clearly working for Voldemort (either as an agent, or a double agent for Dumbledore. We dont know for sure which yet.)

The exact quote is

".... One to cowardly to return ... he will pay. One who I beleive has left me forever ... He will be killed of course..."

So I am sure (given what we know from OOTP and HBP) there is no way that Snape could have been the oathbreaker. That has to be Karkaroff.

well, Snape might have a delayed-action death coming, but I doubt that - Voldy wouldn'T trust him anymore!

In that "exact quote" I read that as Karkaroff is too cowardly to return and Snape is the one he has lost forever. That's why I said in my original post how serious it is that Snape is returned as a Death Eater. He had a lot of convincing to do whether or not he's really a good guy or bad.

No doubt, and on first reading in GOF, it owuld seem that that is the case.

However with what we know now it is *clear* (IMHO) that cannot be the case.

If Snape really was the "oathbreaker" then he would have been dead by the start of OOTP. The fact that he is clearly still carrying out his duties as a double agent (regardless of whos side he really is on) shows he cannot have been the oathbreaker.

Similarly when we discover in HBP that Karkaroff is dead, and that Snape was sent as a double agent by Voldemort in the first place, there is not reason for him to think that Snape has left him forever.

Sure he might consider him a coward for not turning up, but not a traitor. Karkaroff on the other hand sold out other DE to save his own skin. He renouced Voldmort publically. There is no possible doubt as to who is who, once you have read the newest two books.

Snape is on no-one's side except his own.

http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thetwowaymirror/ttwm22.shtml

Oh, and from the same place, I do like this one:

http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thetwowaymirror/ttwm21.shtml

Very clever, but probably not the case!

I'm still reading the red hen article. Yes, what I did not consider was that Snape was at the graveyard. And apparently I'm not alone in making the assumption that he had to be one of the absent DEs. And seeing as they were all masked, unless he spoke or was overtly acknowledged by Voldy, Harry would not know he was there.

Snape was one of the Triwizard judges. Surely someone at Hogwarts would have noticed if he suddenly disappeared.

B

Polyjuice potion?

We absolutely love your recent Dumbledore theory, btw.

Mol

Was Snape a judge?

I have just (within the last couple of hours) finished re-reading GOF. As far as I can tell Snape was not a judge.

However we do now *know* that Snape wasn't at the meeting, because in "Spinners End" in HBP he explains the circumstances as to why he did not attend immediatly.

Again given that Bellatrix refers to Snape as Voldemorts favourite I think it is hugely unlikely that he is the Oathbreaker whom Voldemorts says will die.

As I said before there is no way Voldy got where he is today by making pronoucements that someone must die which are later recinded. Karkaroff dies whilst Snape is favoured by Voldy ergo Karkaroff is the Oathbreaker.

BTW...

Imagining that Snape was at the meeting, is there anything in the GOF "canon" that shows categorically that he couldn't have been? Red-Hen points out that it must have taken some time for Wormtail to kill Cedric, drag the body and Harry to the gravestone. Bind Harry. and Perform the magic to restore Voldy.

Assuming that Snape had informed Dumbledore that his Dark Mark had been returning for some time (and lets face it we can be sure of at least that much), then Dumbledore would have known it was only a matter of time before Snape got such a summons and would surely have made arrangements for Snape to attend at short notice if possible. It is emminently likely that on the evidence of GOF (and nothing since) Snape could have been their on time. As it happened we know he wasn't but still....

I always assumed that Snape was the oath breaker. Volemort refers to two people who are absent from the meeting. Coincentally, there are two former death eaters at Hogwarts. Snape and the other guy. The other guy runs away - and I assume given his fear, he is the one Voldemort said was the coward, and the other being the one who left Voldemort for good.

But at the end of the book, Snape is told by Dumbledore to do what was discussed, and in the description, if I recollect correctly, includes Snape looking nervous. I think perhaps people are reading too much into it all. Snape returned to Voldemort, and somehow persuaded him that Snape was truly using Dumbledore.

Note how in the previous book, he informed the order that they need to go to save Harry and co. If he hadn't chosen to do that, Harry and co would've died.

Indeed, but I think it is pretty clear from reading the books that Snape is a double agent. Also that both his principles (Dumbledore and Voldemort) know he is a double agent. And that they both think that Snape is working for them really.

Now if Snape is the Oathbreaker who will die, and Karkaroff is the coward who will be punished, then how ocme in HBP Karkaroff is found dead and Snape is Voldermorts favourite?

It just doesn't add up. I can see how people might have read GOF as Snape being the oathbreaker, but if you look at his position in OOTP and HPB there is no way he could have been.

I will say it again, if Voldemort pronouces you are to be killed, then you you are not walking around still two years later.

Also think about it, Snape was sent to Hogwarts by Voldemort to spy, knowing he would be a double agent. How has he betrayed Voldemort in any way? Karkaroff did by selling out other DE and publically denoucing Voldemort.

>> How has he betrayed Voldemort in any way?<<

Well, there is that little snag about Snape feeding Voldemort the information which led to his original downfall.

Y.