h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

*duck and cover*

MCKay: >Someone said animals do homosexual sex - well that's great - glad you see your self on a par with animals - well done.<

[Says we're different from animals.]

>Someone else said sex had to be pleasurable else we'd all die out - well talk about that to a male preying Mantis or a male spider - or to a female octopus. On a lesser level ask a female cat.<

[Uses an analogy with animals.]

>Then there was the whole thing on statistics - disproportionate number of paedophiles were hetrosexual (95%) - interesting use of statistics<

[Accuses other people of misusing statistics.]

>that particular statistic says that your prejudices are confirmed - 2% of the population is gay - 5% of sex offenders are.<

[Misuses statistics.]

>In other words as soon as you start justifying things you make arguements that people can blow holes in.<

Load blunderbuss - aim at foot - fire!

>>
Someone else said sex had to be pleasurable else we'd all die out - well talk about that to a male preying Mantis or a male spider - or to a female octopus. On a lesser level ask a female cat.
<<

That's *not what I said McKay. I said that Homo Sapiens, as part of their evolutionary path, have developed a way of enhancing reproduction i.e sensual pleasure. I didn't say that that was true of all animals.

Well put SWL, I think it was in Ancient Greece where their soldiers took a young man under their wing and it was considered a sign of strength, almost like passing on the warriorness if this trainee soldier consumed the semen of their mentor.

Now I know someone will say that this is a form of abuse but the Ancient Greeks I believe were heavily into their same sex sex!!

Although at the end of the day, what goes on between two consenting adults is entirely their own business and really shouldn't bother anyone else.
Its really only a matter of time before homosexuality is as 'normal' (apologies, I hate that word) as any other relationship. In many states in the US, it was illegal for a black person to marry a white person and yet, interracial relationships are considered pefectly normal nowadays. This wasn't all that long ago either!

Er, we are animals. Unless you are the expection. Perhaps you're a plant?

No I'm human - some of us have evolved beyond an animal state - I am however descended from animals, and I'm still a mammal.

Load blunderbuss - aim at foot - fire!

Glad you recognise what you did Jack.

Our animal instincts still drive us, our intelligence gives us something to keep us occupied in the meantime.

Sorry for the flippant little post earlier: I just popped it in before leaving w*rk and it wasn't quite as well considered as perhaps it could have been!


I trust that is a decent one!

"Well put SWL, I think it was in Ancient Greece where their soldiers took a young man under their wing and it was considered a sign of strength, almost like passing on the warriorness if this trainee soldier consumed the semen of their mentor.

Now I know someone will say that this is a form of abuse but the Ancient Greeks I believe were heavily into their same sex sex!!"

The Ancient greeks had what we would now see as a rather strange attiude to homosexuality. It was seen as something that should be between an older man and a young man and was often tied to ideas of "manliness". Alexander the Great's relationship with his male lover was seen as odd because they were around the same age.

The Romans had a different take on it. Whilst homosexuality was commonly tolerated in the republic and pre-Christian empire, it was regarded as shameful to be the "reciever" and manly to be the "giver". Julius Caesar was taunted in his youth for having supposedly been the "catamite" of another man and, many years later, Caesar's relationship with his adopted son Octavian (later the emperor Augustus) was joked about with it being assumed that Octavian was taking the "woman's role" in the relationship. The more conservative Romans seem to have disliked homosexuality because it was seen as interfering with the "proper" relationship of a marriage. Homosexuality was, nonetheless, quite common amongst soldiers and the aristocracy. What's also notable is that the Romans didn't seem to have "identity" sexuality as we do. Some Romans would sleep with men and woman and some preferred one sex whilst not always spurning the other. They didn't seem to have any concept of "homosexuality" meaning someone who only has sex with their own sex.

I agree to a point Zagreb, I suppose it all depends what period we're talking about. This is an interesting, if lengthy link -

http://oregonstate.edu/~blakena/cs195/final/Other/Writing/RomanHomosexuality.html

One aspect that's changed is "There was no equality between the sexes in regard to homosexual acts. While subject to certain strictures, male homosexuality was tolerated in many cases. Lesbianism, however, was much less common and seems to have been universally considered as reprehensible."

Here's an enlightened individual...not.

http://tailrank.com/3734783/Gays-Deserve-Torture-Death-Penalty-Iranian-Minister-Says

>>No I'm human - some of us have evolved beyond an animal state - I am however descended from animals, and I'm still a mammal.<<

I'm presuming your making a joke here, Mackay! Yes?

Why have I lost my SOH lately? I blame it on 2legs and a little bit on TGD thread..

Re Caesar, Suetonius said that his soldiers sang that he 'was every woman's man, and every man's woman'. The hole in the ozone layer wouldn't have been safe. Suetonius also said in 'The Twelve Caesars' that pretty much all of them liked a bit of man on man action. Homosexuals as nancy boys really *wasn't* on the ancients' radar.

The point I was trying to make - which sailed over many heads - is that if you defend homosexuality you are providing arguements for people to shoot down.

There is no defense - homosexuality just is.

Trying to say its normal is self-defeating, because normal is defined by the majority.

and homophobia ? Please - nobody is scared of men in pink shirts discussing curtains.

I am. My curtains are shit.

It is said that nobody's 100% one way or the other but we tend to play to our self identified roles. I know that I'm not 100% gay but have ended up identifying as gay anyway as it is the dominant facet of my sexuality.

In the records of the ancient greeks, romans and such, is there anything about man-man love as opposed to merely man-man sex?

>>Trying to say its normal is self-defeating, because normal is defined by the majority.<<

Yes it may not be normal by that definition. But its most definitely 'normal' for a percentage of the population to be homosexual. So I agree using the word 'normal' isn't really relevent if by normal you mean the majority. But if one means normal in the sense that plenty of people are gay or bisexual in the normal course of events, it most cerrtainly normal.

As many people say, 'Variety is the spice of life'. And give me 'variety' over boring 'monoculture bland purity' any day for a society I want to most enjoy my '3score and 10 years' living in, any day.

Achilles was devoted to Patroclus in the Iliad, although he had a fight with Agamemnon over a slave girl (Briseis, I think). But the love seemed to go to Patroclus rather than any females.

>> ...the ancient greeks... anything about man-man love as opposed to merely man-man sex? "

Indeed, the Greeks had several words and behavioral codes for love.

Many of these assorted relationships existed outside any physical or sexual behaviour. But of course many did include definite and assorted sexual behaviours.

Most modern readers would be familiar with Platonic Love, a non-sexual relationship which is today considered any sexless relationship between a man and woman. Not something Plato would necessarily have approved of.


~jwf~