h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

What is the odds this thread will turn into another one in which causual anti american racism and predjudice gets bandied around on hootoo?

America has a lot of faults but also lots of good stuff. IMHO their foreign policy at the moment is a bit dicey. But American isolationism (their other default position) tends to go just as bad for "the world community".

SWL... I am not picking ohnest

"Show me a critically acclaimed European film and I'll show you a box office failure."

The Lives of Others cost $2 million grossed 60 world wide. One the Oscar gong for best foriegn language film and a whole load of othwers. And it is an absolute rip snorter of a film.

Besides when was film making quality based on box office gross?

"The US Constitution, though imperfect, was centuries ahead of anything in Europe at the time (with the exception of France)."

Damn straight. Still a lot better than the constitution of say... The UK. They have properly enshrined Human Rights over that side of the pond in all.

"Indeed, US social systems are a quantum leap forward from the destructive and introspective European models."

Dagnamit SWL just when I was agreeing with you you come up with some twaddle like that....

Robyn:-

"I cannot get over a country that hasn't been around as long as some of our furniture throwing it's weight around,"

Not really sure what the age of a nations relevance is when it comes to said countrys behavior. Surely bad or good international behavior is just as good or bad whether or not the state is 10 weeks old or a 1000 years old?

Summers Power Past -

Good points, I (here in Texas) agree the USA has had some great achievements. But the tense of the verb is slipping into the past, IMHO . Or at least the first derivative of "achievement" is turning negative. A few concerns:

- Education has become a quest for credentials and the resulting big income. One lawyer for every 320 Americans, twice as many as England and 25 times as many as Japan. Bill Gates said recently that Microsoft cannot employ US graduates because they are not well educated. (Except for the lawyers)

- Space exploration. The last moon landing was 35 years ago. Now it seems NASA is a bureaucratic fund seeker that is reduced to hoping the shuttle doesn't fall apart (for the third time). They hype their launches with advertising superlatives, while covering up studies (like the recent airline safety story) that might reflect badly on corporate profits.

- Economic production. The dollar has hit alltime lows. A recent interview with the manager of a major West Coast port showed that almost everyting is coming IN (from China to Walmart, mostly), while exports are in free fall. My cars are both Hondas and my digital camera is made in Japan.

My personal opinion is that triumphalism after WWII led to a sense of entitlement. We could all just ride our wave of success to riches and wealth, no effort required. Here in Houston, this may be best exemplified by the Enron debacle. No new "pie" was being created, they just grabbed pie, e.g. natural gas, from others and marked it way up to complicit utilities who passed the increase along to consumers who have no choice. And got caught.

As always, I reserve the right to be wrong, and hope I am. I am probably exaggerating for effect, but maybe not as much as I'd wish.

"The Roman Empire took centuries to expand and did so by fire and sword. The British Empire followed a not dissimilar course. The American Empire achieved greater heights in fifty with little recourse to war."

I don't understand the 'little recourse to war' bit. Do you really mean that since the end of World War Two the US has been involved in hardly any wars? (This question for information, not rhetoric and point scoring. Do we include wars fought by proxy, ie. "civil wars" with one side fighting the US's corner, and being heavily supported by the US? I repeat, I'm not asking that as point scoring rhetoric, but to find out whether you count that - as it has been a large part of world history since WWII, and it's hard to phrase it in a way that won't be jumped on as anti-American).

Sorry, to clarify - the US has not had recourse to expansionist wars of conquest.

<>

They were effectively at war with the Natives for about 250 years, until there weren't enough of them left to fight.

I attempt to put the ages of culture into three categories:

Adults... Established societies such as the Western World (USA probably included).

Teenagers... Africa and established asians colonies, as well as the mediterranean.

Children... The rest.

The adults made their mistakes centuries ago and have to live with it, which is why the USA is uncertain, as it should have learnt by proxy...

The teenagers have seen what the Adults have and want it now, but haven't the experience to handle it and so destroy what was working under the Adults' protection.


The children are exploited and have no idea what is going on, and see the beauty of the trinkets offered them and prostitute their lifemfor the benefit of those with the trinkets...

Ever has it been so from Alexander, through Genghis Khan, to the British Empire...

Trappers, traders, Merchants, You name it, the cycle is the same, as is the end result..

A very brief potted history of mankind, but my analogy works for me...

Open to the slings and arrows of inaccuracy!!!

MMF

So where do China and India fit in? Teenagers or adults?

WARNING: This is a rather long post, since I'm just responding to all the stuff I found in the backlog.


~*~1. Has the USA had a big impact on the world? Any specific examples?~*~

I have no way of knowing in regards to cultural impact, but it's certainly had a massive technological impact.




~*~3. Could the USA have a claim to being 'the greatest country or culture in the world?' Why / why not?~*~

Frankly no. Simply because no one can; there is no "greatest", only different. That said, at present it's certainly the most militarily powerful.




~*~My concern being that there's very little, if anything, to be commended about exported american culture. It's seems so material, selfish, profit-based.~*~

To be fair, that particular aspect probably is. You may remember for instance that the ones doing the exporting are the big companies who are trying to expand their profit margins by selling their products to more people. And as such, it says nothing about /actual/ culture. My recommendation would be to spend some quality time in a country before you criticize it. (And don't lock yourself in the hotel room either.)




~*~loudly proclaiming it's knowledge and opinions, insisting it must be right,~*~

Doesn't everybody? Aren't you, right now?




~*~when you look at the deeply irresponsible and bloody founding of the place,~*~

Which was, what? 230 years ago? Definitely relevant to modern times, yes sir.

And if I may ask, (also if I may not I suppose, since I'm going to do it anyway), how, exactly, was it "deeply irresponsible"?




~*~[When you look] at the attitudes that created the united states, at the ideals that are upheld (land of the free? If you're a white christian perhaps...)~*~

If I recall my history correctly, the "attitudes" were equal representation in government and the refusal to just roll over and do whatever the Person Born To Power He Never Earned says.

As for the "white christian" comment.... This is just so far removed from the present day that I don't even know how to respond to it.




~*~All the americans I've personally met have been fantastic people on some level or other,~*~

Again, they're a much better example of America's actual "culture" than anything a company has to sell you. You'd do well to remember that.




~*~but I dont like the collective mob effect of so many people, so divided,~*~

Divided? I think I'm misunderstanding what you mean; divided how?




~*~so diverse,~*~

Since when is diversity bad? Without diversity there can be no growth and you will die. I could, if you like, cite many examples where the idea of "purity" has led to disaster. Nazis, for instance.




~*~Seems to me if it werent for capitalism, the USA wouldnt be such a rich and influential place.~*~

You're absolutely right. Isn't Capitalism great?




~*~Hello, I hope you don't mind me weighing in as well. I'm an American (sadly)~*~

If you don't like it, move somewhere else and quit whining.




~*~I can recite several examples of ignorance, hypocrisy, greed, sloth, envy...all seven sins and more...~*~

Which you will find anywhere, hence why they're called "The Seven Sins" in the first place.




~*~The Roman Empire took centuries to expand and did so by fire and sword. The British Empire followed a not dissimilar course. The American Empire achieved greater heights in fifty with little recourse to war.~*~

I admit I'm just being picky here, but America is not an "Empire".




~*~The US dominates the popular culture of film and music because it is simply better.~*~

Again, I'm being picky, but I just want to point out once more that there's no such thing as a "better" culture.




~*~so what is so ''positive'' about USA's influence other than major disasters...~*~

Name one.




~*~do we really need to dig and argue and prove how shitty usa was and always is???~*~

You do if you want to convince me.




~*~The US Constitution, though imperfect, was centuries ahead of anything in Europe at the time (with the exception of France).~*~

It also bears pointing out that the creators /knew/ it was imperfect, and so made it changeable.




~*~But back to the original question. What influence has the USA had on the world? Well, it ended two World Wars started by the supposedly more mature European cultures. How's that for starters?~*~

Both of those wars would have ended on their own, though in the case of the second it's impossible to predict how things would've been without U.S. involvement.

And it would also be unfair to ignore the fact that the U.S. was more or less directly responsible for the Cold War.




~*~Education has become a quest for credentials and the resulting big income. One lawyer for every 320 Americans, twice as many as England and 25 times as many as Japan. Bill Gates said recently that Microsoft cannot employ US graduates because they are not well educated. (Except for the lawyers)~*~

Could you explain this better? I don't understand what you mean.




~*~Space exploration. The last moon landing was 35 years ago.~*~

Yep. Fascinating place the moon; so full of rocks and dust.... It's scientific interest is absolutely unparalelled I'm sure.




~*~Economic production. The dollar has hit alltime lows. A recent interview with the manager of a major West Coast port showed that almost everyting is coming IN (from China to Walmart, mostly), while exports are in free fall. My cars are both Hondas and my digital camera is made in Japan.~*~

I admit I know virtually nothing about economics. But isn't global economy a good thing? Does it not symbolize the first step in world government? Without all those unseemly wars of expansion I mean.




~*~My personal opinion is that triumphalism after WWII led to a sense of entitlement. We could all just ride our wave of success to riches and wealth, no effort required.~*~

I think you may be right there; that bugs me.




~*~Do you really mean that since the end of World War Two the US has been involved in hardly any wars? (This question for information, not rhetoric and point scoring. Do we include wars fought by proxy, ie. "civil wars" with one side fighting the US's corner, and being heavily supported by the US? I repeat, I'm not asking that as point scoring rhetoric, but to find out whether you count that - as it has been a large part of world history since WWII, and it's hard to phrase it in a way that won't be jumped on as anti-American).~*~

If I'm not forgetting anything, that would include Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, and now Iraq. So five in the last 60 years. Whether that qualifies as hardly any or quite a lot, I don't know.




~*~They were effectively at war with the Natives for about 250 years, until there weren't enough of them left to fight.~*~



America's not even 250 years old, and as virtually all the tribes were defeated by about 1880 or 1890, that would really be more like 120 years.

It might also be good to remember that while the Native Americans saw the incoming settlers as invaders to their homes that had to be defeated, their form of warfare did not include official declarations of grievances or declarations of war, (governmental concepts that were completely foreign to them), they simply retaliated. AND, because their form of warfare also did not discriminate civilians from soldiers (also foreign concepts), the settlers in their ignorance believed them to be bloodthirsty savages who were slaughtering them all for no apparent reason. Both sides held the other responsible.

Please note that this explanation doesn't mean I approve of it. It may be the worst example cultural misunderstanding in history.




~*~What are the odds this thread will turn into another one in which causual anti-american racism and prejudice gets bandied around on hootoo?~*~

Right now I'm giving 3:1.

And would someone please explain what "imo" and "IMHO" stand for? 'Cause I haven't got the slightest clue.

<< I (here in Texas) agree the USA has had some great achievements. But the tense of the verb is slipping into the past, IMHO . Or at least the first derivative of "achievement" is turning negative>>

I, too, think the US is at the start of terminal decline. I do not think we are going to have a second "American century". The position of the US now seems similar in many ways to that of Britain in 1901. Still the major power in the world, the UK made heavy weather of dealing with the Boers in South Africa and spent the rest of the 20th century going downhill.

Hard to believe that the UK was the world superpower before the USA, but it was.

I can only see the US going the same way now. It all stems from the economy. Military dominance is unsustainable without the economy to back it up, as we saw with the USSR.

Bye bye USA

Bah! Don't be so defeatist and pessimistic.

a lot of USA bashing on this...it's v popular in some quarters in uk right now.

next time we're in need of help, when our rights we feel as natural are threatened, when we want to know who our true mates are....let's ask a peace loving do gooding middle class UK student for help...oh no they're hiding behind their sofa!!!

Sorry, rant over.

it amazes me that Americans are still seen by people in this country as the bad guys....that pride in your country is read as arrogance and that mistakes made are unforgivable.....like the UK was a historically peaceful nation??????

i might change my mind after visiting the US for the first time next month but i have found the people inherently decent (if with a strange penchant for making rounders a national sport!) and the only sheriff in town when the bad guys shout 'BOO!!'

<>

Mates?

Although they were invaluable in helping to kick the Nazis out of France in 1944-45, at first they were in no hurry to join in the war (fair enough, why should they?) and left us to see off the Luftwaffe on our own. Remember the Battle of Britain? That was all done and dusted by the time the US joined in.

Eventually, by the summer of '41 the Germans given up on the idea of invading Britain. The Americans didn't enter the war until December '41.

Then there was lend-lease.

Some mates!

I'm not really blaming the Americans - they have a right to look out for their own interests - but those Brits who bang on about the US being our "mates" are irritatingly naive.

For the record, the Russians were quicker than the US to enter the war against Nazism.

Slower than the Brits, but quicker than the US.

<<~*~They were effectively at war with the Natives for about 250 years, until there weren't enough of them left to fight.~*~



America's not even 250 years old, and as virtually all the tribes were defeated by about 1880 or 1890, that would really be more like 120 years.>>

Ok, substitute 'the English who lived in America before it was independent', if you want to nitpick.

To be honest, the US has had an enormous influence, both good and bad. I can't be bothered to post anything even slightly detailed, cos the post would be too long.

If people want to willfully ignore whole paragraphs to nitpick individual sentences, then I've not got the energy to repeat myself, frankly.

I DO have a problem with a country that says one thing and practices another.
When walking down the street in certain cities dressed in a certain way can get you lynched because of the small-minded self-righteousness of the communities.
When attitudes to gay people, black people and probably other 'different' sections of communities are so awful, and fairly openly so.
When saying that you dont like the president will get you ostracised because it makes you unpatriotic.
That doesn't look to me like a land of the free.

And dont go pretending like I'm saying that the UK is perfect, I'm not. In living memory (and currently) racism is a problem, but we are working on it. Hard. It's less and less acceptable, we are trying hard to equalise opportunities and attitudes. Whether it's working or not? It's like trying to prove evolution by taking a snapshot of the here and now, but the improvements since, say the 70s are massive.

As for homosexuality: put it this way, being ridiculously camp was shockingly funny here, what, 30 years ago? Seems like america STILL finds it slightly shocking...

And as for what wasn't irresponsible about moving to a new land and lying to and killing it's inhabitants... What can I say... I refer you to Eddie Izzard: But WE own it now, we have a FLAG. Do you have a flag? No flag no country!

Call this what you like, but please try to understand, I dont HATE the USA. I dislike a lot of what the country as a whole (i.e. it's government and general output i.e. the media and so on) portrays and projects to the rest of the world, especially when I see it as based on deep (and recent) hypocrisy.

As for the film question... The sheer numbers of films (and TV) being written, produced, bought, sold, casted and occasionally actually MADE.. well, monkeys and typewriters, frankly.

IMO = In My Opinion

IMHO = In My Humble Opinion

>>>And as for what wasn't irresponsible about moving to a new land and lying to and killing it's inhabitants... What can I say... I refer you to Eddie Izzard: But WE own it now, we have a FLAG. Do you have a flag? No flag no country!<<<

Slightly off topic, but every conversation I've had of this nature ends up with an Eddie Izzard quote in it somewhere! He has a knack of summarising huge events in a few sentences, and making it funny when he does so.

I thought perhaps in this case he was being *too* general and that maybe what he said wasn't true, But although he's exaggerating a little and using a little 'poetic licence', I've looked into the history of the Native Americans, and I think he sums it up nicely.

>>Adults... Established societies such as the Western World (USA probably included).<<

You're not seriously describing the Welsh as adults are you?

I wouldn't use a crass generalism if I didnt feel it was true and actually not TOO general, really. Paraphrasing perhaps though



Oh, while I'm here...

My child analogy was not intended to be used for other countries that I didnt mention. It was not intended to be universal. It was based on the aparent BEHAVIOUR of the country and the fact that it IS a young country merely made the analogy more accurate.

The people who 'created' america certainly did come from other cultures. People and cultures who believed they had the right to take over a country that was already inhabited... By killing those people if necessary (or convenient) simply because they called themselves civilised and considered the indiginous people uncivililsed. Hrm...

<>

Hmm. More like leprechauns. Except not Irish.