h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

OK. I'll check in a half hour.
to review my question: (in case it wasn't clear,) Why should i feel bad for a kid who contracted AIDs because he made an irresponsible decision based on animal impulse rather then human thought?
(OK, now that I phrased it that way, I do feel bad for the person. Whole life effected by one wrong decision. Still, its not like there aren't enough people around to show what the consequences are. Its not just stupid, its plain ol' dumb.)

Which particular question did you have in mind, LeoAlpha? I thought I'd covered the important one?

RF

nooo. rephrase that question.
it's:
explain to me how you justify the statement that kids wind up in bed after drinking vodka laced punch contracting HIV even though they know it'll kill them, because they are bored.

I'm afraid I've come up a bit short, googling for numbers, but, LeoAlpha, I thought you might be interested to know that the average worker in the African country of Mali would have to work for thirty-five days, five weeks, to earn what you spend *just* on underwear. That's at a rate of $1.50 a day. And that's the average, mind you: it doesn't begin to cover what 'poverty' amounts to.

Ever actually had 'nothing'?

(That against the background of the fact that in certain part of the US, 'poverty' is defined by a family's inability to afford a second car. Not a car, mind you - a *second* car)

first of all, I always check out numbers. I'll take the source pleae.
Second of all, according to Koshana, "Nothing' includes parties with Vodka in the punch.

Which still doesn't answer my question. See above for details of it.

RF was arguing that since I dont understand poverty, I dont understand how someone can make such an irresponsible decision. I admit that I dont really understand poverty, but then again, neither do you.
But the human will to live is pretty strong, and it takes alot of... I'm not really sure what, to indulge in something that you know can kill you.

PS: my mode of transportation is rollerblades. MInd you, not new roller blades, or expensive roller blades, but the cheapest thing they had 5 years ago, after I scrounged a years worth of babysitting money to afford them.
Neither does my family have 2 cars.
Pretty poverty stricken, I think. *rolls eyes at pointlessness of this, since it doesn't adress the point at all.

Well, for the sake of argument, let's say you spend $60 a year on underwear, that equates to $5 a month. Current exchange rate is 6.30 SAR/$, which is SAR378. I'll wait for Kosh to sign back on to find out what proportion of annual income that represents for an average South African.

So, why should you "feel bad"? The fact remains that what is happening (not just with HIV/AIDS, but with a whole host of other diseases) is *preventable*. All it takes is a bit of effort. The way to get that effort is for people to firstly understand and know that it is happening; and that in itself is a major undertaking.

I know it may seem that I've been having a go at you; I've been a bit terse at times. I apologise. But at least you're asking the questions that need to be answered, rather than burying your head in the sand, which is a reaction that a lot of people in the "West" have. I do not absolve myself from this - far from it. The solution will come slowly, but there are a number of simple things that can be done which will get us there. Knowledge about what is going on is the first step.

What you can do as a next step is *vote* for someone who says he's going to do something about it. Different people have different views about how that might come about, but that's the decision you make. If you feel it's important. I know that voter turnout is low in the US. It's also low in the UK, and is a major factor in electoral results here.

Hey, you wanted to know what was happening in the world that you should know about! Hope you're getting the answers you're looking for.

RF

LeoAlpha, the post which referred to vodka, was one where someone else had spiked the punch. You are aware of this phenomenom, I presume? Please stop following red herrings.

When you've been infected with HIV/AIDS at birth, or by being raped at the age of 5, by the time you're old enough to understand the death sentence you've got, exactly how much hope do you think you'd have?

RF

*rolls eyes*
the first post was all very nice, though clearly some s *x ed is really the first preventative measure.

The second post is rolling back to the first misconception of what my question is.
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE INFECTED FROM BIRTH.
Lets type it again, just in case.
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE INFECTED FROM BIRTH.
OK.
here's the backlog in short:

Koshana tells about children born HIV infected. Leo is saddened, feels awful, and wonders if there is any way for us out here to distribute that drug or pay for the orphanages?

Koshana tells about the children being r* aped, and Leo is subdued, wonders what it's like to live in a society where the back allies aren't safe.

Koshana tells about teenagers forced to do without cond oms because they cant afford them. Leo straightens up, and suggests that they abstain.

Sniggers come from across the atlantic. Abstain? What an American, Bush-supporter concept. (hmm... so now they think they have my politics too...)

Leo points out that it has nothing to do with Bush or America. It has to do with not contracting HIV.

It is then pointed out, (dont remember by who) that these people are poverty stricken, and Leo cant judge them.

Leo agrees that she cant judge them, but doesn't waver from her point that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

At some point Leo's under wear purchases are brought out for scrutinization.

Leo stresses that she is not talking about people infected from birth. Leo points out that poverty has nothing to do with restraining oneself.
After again being told that people infected from birth have no hope, plus they are poor,
Leo stesses that she is not talking about people infected from birth.
Leo points out that poverty has nothint to do with self restraint.


Leo stesses that she is not talking about people infected from birth.
Leo points out that poverty has nothint to do with self restraint.

Leo awaits a response, though she rather suspects there is none. Instead, she hopes someone suggests how us western people can help this rather situation down there.

>>someone suggests how us western people can help this rather situation down there<<

Easy - encourage the pharmaceutical companies to dip into their enormous profits and either distribute cheap AIDS drugs in Africa and elsewhere, or remove the petty-minded legal restrictions which currently prevent the developing world from making their own.

<>

Get rid of the Christian missionaries who preach that condoms don't help control Aids. For starters.


<>

And the difference is? Abstinance won't work because people are human beings and we are often overwhelmed by our passions, especially teenagers who are trying to understand all the hormonal flux suddenly happening to them. And who are all these people you talk about - right wing fundamentalist Christians? (or similar?) You think a teenager living in an inner city slum is going to listen to some self-righteous head-up-their-*rse bible-thumping ignoramus? Think again.

Look at the subject title again, Leo. Why did you start this thread if you weren't prepared to listen? Your angry and often rude replies to people demonstrate your youth and ignorance. No problem, we were all there once. We all had to learn.

But if you were serious about wanting to know more about what is going on in the rest of the world, why not try listening (well reading) more carefully and putting more thought into writing your own responses and questions?

Just lashing out at people and sticking to very US-ian ideas and concepts about how the world is won't help you learn anything.


az

ps

'argument' is spelled without the extra 'e' in it.


az

To a certain extent I see where Leo is coming from. Even if you are a horny teenager, if you had a high risk of contracting a deadly disease, abstinence would be a good idea. It´s not like malaria, where all you need is to be stung by a mosquito. But I imagine the young people of Africa just don´t know much about the mechanics of AIDS. Even in Britain there seems to be some strange ideas about sex, despite the sex education. And I don´t think the majority of people in african countries have even had that. So you end up with some strange superstitions, like having sex with virgins. They might not know they are actually able to contract AIDS, from whatever they are doing.

Sorry Leo, I stand corrected, it would never really be vodka, more like metholated spirits strained through bread - or the local equivalent of homebrewed fire-water, but it was too long to type and I didn't think it was particularly relevant. What I was referring to when I made the remark that's got you in such a tiz was cases of firls being invited to "hang out" with the local guys and being offered "juice" but spiked with whatever really inexpensive high potency stuff is going arround, being raped and then contracted HIV. "Raped" though to someone of your ilk may be a loose term because after a dose of potent stuff like that they dont put up much of a fight. Its a common phonomenon and not always along exactly the same lines but simular.
It's all very well to tout high morals and "abstinence" and such in a world where you have some control of your environment - most people in the townships are just struggling to stay alive - litteraly - not stabbed on their way home or in their home etc, there's little room for high morality. One living adult these days with a job and a home supports up to 11 kids - of siblings or friends that have died etc - so for a teen that's never really been "precious" to anyone - someone paying extrordinary attention to them may have a bit more a lure than you can conceive of, and will be more prone to become sexually active (the young girls expecially believing that there's some kind of caring involved - I think this at least traverses cultural boundaries) earlier than "normal". Physical needs may include needing to stay healthy and HIV-free but in environments where there is such emotional poverty - there are other motivators to bahaviour that someone whose never had to share a bedroom with 7 "siblings" (size maybe 3x2m?) couldn't truly grasp.
As to religious communities that choose to live without tv's etc, there are other activities the kids are involved with - chores, games etc. Kids in the townships play games too, but with no supervision (what you want them to hire a nanny?) the games in teenhood go where the hormones are going. A parent can leave home at 4 am to get to work by 7 and be home by 9. If they're lucky they have an elderly relative (or the eldest child) to help with housework, but moral education of 10+ children is not high on the priority list. Then of course there are the thousands of homes where there are no "parents" at all and the oldest kids just do what ever they can to raise the youngest ones.
Schools try, but they're overcrowded and the teachers are some of the worst-paid workers in the country so its not an ideal system. Any kind of "religeous" education had been banned due to diversity in beliefs, so sex education is it - hand in hand with the hand-outs of industrial strength condoms. Then you want to go to the struggle of manhood development in young boys to whom "gansters" seem the most successful members of a community . . . . there's annother minefield of influence right there - not to mention American rap-culture which has taken hold amongst youth here.

But its exactly mind-sets like yours that drive ignorance. This is the way it is, and its not all because people are immoral or depraved. There are over a milion HIV-infected teens in SA - and you're saying that you have no sympathy for them because they're immoral. I'm saying you're displaying traits of an ignorant bafooon. Let's leave it that ok? I respect your right to your own opinion, and dont feel an ongoing motivation to heal your stubbourn ignorance. Peace bro!

I dont particularly know the truth of the missionaries suggestion az, but the waters are so fuzzy here on abstinance. Its an unheard-of concept mostly - in all communities - religeous or not.

Christian missionaries have done a lot of irreprable harm here, but I cant think of a case specifically where they've said condoms wont help. But the whole condom issue presupposes that the majority of sexual activity is consensual - and I would argue that supposition on the lines of "our" understanding of consensual.

Low income African people arent stupid, or ignorant nescessarily, they just grow up in environments and with influences that no one who hasn't lived or witnessed it could really grasp. There are those who abstain - for as long as they can before they're co-erced or raped, a few even make it through to "adulthood" - only to marry a man who has an affair and infects them that way. The helplessness breeds apathy, and that's the real killer. there is no 1 finite solution. Alleviate poverty, empower communities, find a cure. These will all help, for now I think that people just need to know what really goes on - not just mosey arround with rose-tinted glasses believing that those who get infected with HIV in some way "deserve" it so they're justified in looking the other way.

What kills me, is that there are such beautifull people that the world is going to loose, who knows what these people could have been to the world. One of my trustees mentioned the other day that when a trustee of ours returns from being away, we must really spend a lot of time with him and get him to write a lot of his thoughts and dreams for the community down, because soon we're going to loose him (we know though no-one says it that he is infected) and we must have something to remember what his dreams were. It was very matter-of-fact and the other trustees agreed enthusiastically that we must do that. One even said - we should really value each other - any day any of us could be gone.

I wanted to scream! Isn't there more we can do? We can save jabu! Keep him arround to expound his own dreams! But that's my cultural mindset - and it isn't prevalent.

Dear Leo

You ask What are the things that Americans dont know about?
Do you have a week to discuss?

How about all the state sponsored trouble your governments have stirred up in the world? Seeling arms to just about every bad guy despot on the planet and then bitching when they are no longer your poodle?

How about the plans to invade Saudi Arabia in the mid 70's petrol crisis when the US government thought they would limit the gas supply?
What gives your country the right to draw up plans to invade just because you might go short of fuel?

How about the decades of genocide practised on the Native American populations and all the treaties and promises that were broken?

How about understanding that a huge swathe of the planet despise the US for its politics, but you just dont believe it?

How about understanding that the "War On Terrorism" cannot be fought with aircraft carriers, cruise missiles and bombers when the targets are single suicide bombers that you have no defence against?

Another thing you probably do not realise is that some 85% of all the clothing you wear is produced in asian sweatshops - and that if they all suddenly decided to stop production you would all be in big trouble in the trouser department? Without a single shot being fired!

"Why should i feel bad for a kid who contracted AIDs because he made an irresponsible decision based on animal impulse rather then human thought? (OK, now that I phrased it that way, I do feel bad for the person. Whole life effected by one wrong decision. Still, its not like there aren't enough people around to show what the consequences are. Its not just stupid, its plain ol' dumb.)"

I think everyone should feel compassion for every other human being, but that's because I'm a humanist. If someone doesn't feel compassion for others, there's not a lot that I or anyone else can do to change their minds. All I can do is recommend walking a mile in someone else's shoes before rushing to judgement.

I'm sure Koshana will put me right on this if I'm wrong, but the impression that I got when visiting Namibia was that there are various cultural factors in southern Africa which are very different from Europe and the US. Firstly, Europe and the US are generally very open about AIDS and there's a lot of publicity about it. It's something that's relatively easy to discuss. In many parts of Southern Africa, it's taboo. If you have it, you don't admit it for fear of being ostracised. If a family member dies, it's not of AIDS. There may be a lot of AIDS deaths, but that doesn't mean that everyone understands what causes it, how it is spread, and so on. With almost every other illness, there are some physical signs that a person is infected - not with HIV.

(I was lucky enough to visit a village in Ovambuland, and the impression I got from there is that HIV/AIDS education programmes are being carried out in schools and the young are educating the old about it. This takes time. It's not all doom and gloom out there....)

Preaching abstenance is all well and good, but the hard facts are that it doesn't work (by itself) as a public health policy. In the UK, there is a link between physical and emotional poverty and STDs and teenage pregancy, and I would be amazed if it wasn't true in the USA as well. Is it that poor kids can't control themselves and rich kids can? Does that seem likely? Or might it be that emotional insecurity, low self esteem, poor prospects contribute? Someone who grows up knowing that they are loved is likely to find it easier to abstain from sex. Those religious communities that LeoAlpha mentions are typically very close-knit, very loving, and very good at making people feel important and special.

Teenagers who don't feel loved want to feel loved, to feel special, and some think that sex offers this to them. An animal impulse? No - I don't think it's just lust - it's a desire to be loved and to feel better about oneself. Misguided? Almost certainly.

This is true in the UK, and I have known people like this. Reading Koshana's post (55), I would imagine this is likely to be even more true in those kind of conditions.

I read a while ago that a condom on Russia costs about a weeks wages. I imagine this would also mean people are less likely to use them. But I haven´t heard of any areas in Russia with similar AIDS problems anything like Africa. What do you think makes the difference, just better education?

I'd heard that Russia has a terrible AIDS problem - so there you go.