h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Abstinence will only take you so far - the incidence of teenage rape in Southern African countries is also a huge area for concern. Kosh, do you have any info on this?

And Kosh, don't think of it as "ranting": I for one am fully supportive of your posts - please keep going. People need to know this stuff from someone like you who actually sees what's happening around them, rather than what gets reported (or not) in the media.

RF

I'd like to second that: Koshana, your posts are amazingly informative, so please do go on as much as you want - I'm very grateful to read them and doubt I'm the only one who knows far less than he or she should as regards what you're talking about.

Wow Reddy, you really took the wind out of this girls sails with that! Thanks! I get so into the groove of people trying to avoid looking at what's real that I forget there are people out there who do actually care what's going on in the world!

Its not even so much the teenage rape that's so frightening, its the child-rape that's horrendous. See, somewhere back when HIV was first being publiscised some dumb-as . . .can I say that? well some mis-informed local healers (Sangomas) were telling people that they could cure themselves of HIV by sleeping with virgins. So . . . that lead so an underground exlosion of child-rape - and as moral degradation goes, it wasn't confined to girls. Teenage rape is as common amongst poorer communities as normal rape is - as I said earlier - inexpensive entertainment is in high demand. So much so that one of the girls in my girls group in Tladi told me the other day (she's 12) that she'd rather sleep with her boyfriend now and choose her first sexual experience than get it chosen for her. Not in those words but the Zulu doesn't translate well.

Here's a real horror-story that despite my exposure that really shook me. At an orphanage in Joburg there are two kids that I have a huge soft spot for. The little girl - Natalie - is four. She was a sex worker from 6 months old in a shabeen in Alexander and was removed from there by social workers at 2 years old. She of course is HIV positive and it took a year and a half of being in the orphanage before anyone could touch her without her screaming. She's a happy little girl now but there's a darkness in her eyes that haunts me.
Jabu wasn't positive when his father died of AIDS and he was put into "the system" - such as it is here - when he was 4. His med records confirm it. But at the group home he was placed in he got raped by the resident priest and so is now HIV positive.
These are not exceptional cases. No journalist here would even be interested in these stories because they're so common.

I think what isn't understood "out there" is how de-sensitised everyone gets here by things that happen everyday. Rape is a big thing in middle to upper income groups because its preventable, teen prostitution in poverty-sticken areas doesn't even raise an eyebrow. We try to impose our standards on environments so far outside of our experience that we miss the real problems entirely (like the condom issue). Its not even so much that kids dont know about HIV, but that they feel its almost inevitable that they are going to die of AIDS anyway that they become apathetic. (and that goes for most teens, across the board, its frightening how many kids from good, high-income families have told me that . . well they're going to die sometime anyway).

And stealth, the saliva thing is true, but all it takes is one sore in the one mouth (and HIV patients frequently have these - especially untreated) and a "teething gum" or a small wound in the other mouth to affect transmission. Its not an unavoidable issue in adults but with kids and teens it represents a high tranmission probability.

Wow again Trin. Thanks for that, you've made my day both of you! stealth too of course cause he just cares about important stuff.

Now, see, if either of you are Americans then I might have to review my stance on American blinkeredness!

Keep passing open windows

No - thank you - really. I'm British, in fact, but I really don't know enough about the things you're describing. It's not that the issue doesn't get covered at all by the press here, but in nothing like this kind of detail (and it tends to focus as much on the greed of US and European pharmaceutical companies): in other words, I'm vaguely aware of the issue, but not at this, very human level.

"And stealth, the saliva thing is true, but all it takes is one sore in the one mouth (and HIV patients frequently have these - especially untreated) and a "teething gum" or a small wound in the other mouth to affect transmission. Its not an unavoidable issue in adults but with kids and teens it represents a high tranmission probability."

Ah, this seems quite obvious now that it has been pointed out to me. I guess such conditions are more likely to occur in SA than here in the UK?

I'm sure there are many trivial things that concern me, but thank you for the compliment.

Dont tell me about hormone something-or-another. If you dont stand near the edge of the cliff, you dont fall over when the wind blows.
I can sympathize with someone who's been d. Not someone who lacks self control.
And you can survive teen-hood without TV and video games very nicely. Bicycles too. There are entire relegious communities that do it.

Claiming a teenager 'cant help' having is a very European idea, and it doesn't stand up to the light. I know dozens and dozens of teens who have managed very well thank you. Maybe its some other people who need to wake up and smell the .

I, too, am British, Kosh. I had also heard about the child rape issue but, with our media, you're never sure how much of it is exxagerrated for effect, and how much is true, so didn't want to post exactly that in case I was reinforcing a media stereotype. It really must be very frightening. We've also had some reporting here about President Mbeki's denials of the causes of AIDS which must be very unsettling - how much of what we hear in the UK is true?

RF

hmmm.
I think my computer is censo*ring my posts...

Koshana raises a to leo's computer - "someone/thing had to do it sweetie" "I think we'll live"

Reddy, that's annother huge mudpile. His scriptwritters really stuffed that one up solidly. Ok, so HIV causes AIDS. We know that - and so - despite all the hype - does he. But poverty, lack of education and all the rest are a huge enhacement to the spread of HIV and the transfer of status from "positive" (HIV-wise) and "full-blown" (AIDS). Poor nutrition and a whole bunch of other factors contribute hugely as well. It was just so daft for him to have made that statement and his scriptwritter responsible should have been shot.

An HIV positive person with good nutrition and care can go into remission quite quickly - evenshow no signs of the virus after a time, but a malnourished, poverty-sticken person living in poor conditions can become full blown in a short time. So does HIV always cause AIDS? No. But poverty and such always cause AIDS in an HIV infected population.
Its semantics, but concidering the other discussions that were going on at the time (african debt issues etc) it was a political statement that was excessively ill-advised.

PS: *Koshana gives Leo a * Dont take this personally, but I think your responses here have been pretty blinkered and stubbourn. You cant possibly judge the choices made by kids that live in a world you cannot even begin to image. Spend a week in Soweto and then we can chat about this again.

send the tickets. I'll go. Still, if you'retrying to convice me that boredom is an excuse... sorry. doesn't wash. I'll introduce you to Amish, to Muslims, to Jews, all who dont watch TV, play video games, or bed down at parties.

Sorry, Leo, but that is such an *American* response. Do you have any idea of the conditions that people live in in the townships? You probably spend more on underwear than they earn in a year. And you want them to send *you* a ticket?

RF

no. you can send the ticket. And I dont spend alot on under wear at all. <?> do you?
And i still dont understand what their income has to do with their impulses. (or how they throw parties with vodka in the punch on their income that must total 12 a year based on my under wear purchases...)
Sorry, but it's very European to say, "Poor people, so many problems, they cant help themselves..."

>>And i still dont understand what their income has to do with their impulses<<

Write back when you do.

RF

NO. I challenge you to explain it.

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The silence is telling. It deserves the full brunt of my tag:

It's not you I despise, it's your pathetic lack of solid arguement.

You might want to revisit some of the backlog. But hey, here goes: people who believe that they have no hope in life make choices that they do not believe will affect them in the long term. Because they do not believe thst they have a long term future. I'm talking about people who are raped whilst they are between the ages of 5 and 10, and infected with HIV/AIDS. As they grow up, they learn what the future holds for them, long after they have any ability to do anything about it. The hopelessness that these children suffer leads them to indulge in behaviour which you or I, living in relative comfort, may find bizarre. But heck, there are people in *my* country who live in similar situations, (not quite as desperate, but in some ways more so) although the main method of transmission is sharing syringes rather than child rape. What they have in common is a despair and hopelessness about their future, which drives them to prostitution, drug addiction, and an early death. As Koshana has pointed out, poverty is a major aggravating factor in the death rate.

btw, your definition of not spending "a lot" on underwear might stand up to examination. Care to put a dollar value on it for one year?

RF

I already mentioned that I sympathize with people who are ra ped or born with HIV.

What I was objecting to was people who infect themselves through thoughtless behavior.

I beleive $50 should cover all my under wear expenses for this year. give or take 10 bucks.

And I can sympathize with anyone who doesn't make more then that, becuase sometimes i get the feeling that I dont either, after taxes.

which reminds me... You still haven't answered my question.

LeoAlpha, this is not a chatroom. If you don't get an immediate response, it might be because someone is actually thinking about, and researching, their reply; rather than giving an off-the-cuff response. Just something to bear in mind.

RF