h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

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It predates significant contact between the West and Africa. Yes, I know that the Romans had African slaves, but the earlier references to Africans are as 'Nubians'. Othello is a 'Moor'. And so on.

Mind you - I have not reasearched this, this is just an impression.



>>What is racist is though is when a culture that is 'white' oppresses peoples that are not white and are seen as 'black' and that oppressing culture also just happens to have a language where the good things are white and the bad things are black. That is not a coincidence.

It probably is, actually.

Racism is endemic to humanity - viz the Chinese disdain of anyone not Chinese in the 18th and 19th centuries and the Emperor's stipulation that European ambassadors should kow-tow as vassals.

It just happens that the most militarily successful parts of the globe in recent times have been the northern parts, where strong seasonality and dark and dangerous winters produced an association between light / white / summer / life / good in polarity with dark / black / winter / death / evil.


>> language does have an effect on thought and consequently we should from time to time evaluate the impact of what we say.

Of course it is. It is one of our major tools for thinking. In fact I can only think of a few others, and they are all, without exception, technical or mathematical.


B
*back on line having done some washing up, started cooking some salsa for dipping tomorrow, and put a chicken in the oven to roast*

And on that note, it being the very wee hours, I'm off to bed.

Thanks for the interesting conversation



kea.

Good night, kea. Sweet dreams.

B

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James Earl Jones is British???


az

No problems with the idea that racism is not the sole preserve of white cultures.



>>.It just happens that the most militarily successful parts of the globe in recent times have been the northern parts, where strong seasonality and dark and dangerous winters produced an association between light / white / summer / life / good in polarity with dark / black / winter / death / evil.<<

What about the cultures that don't associate dark/black with evil? Perhaps someone can find this out while I an asleep.



A possibly similar kind of ascribing of value happens in the Chinese concept of yin/yang, where male=positive and female= negative. I know the origins of the term yin/yang and how it connects to gender but am uncertain how they got so attached to negative and positive values (and to what extent this is Western translation).

Thanks Ben

*waves night to az too*

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Given when the book was written I really have a hard time believing it was purposely 'sexist'. The guy just didn't know how to write women. I don't see it as sexism per se.


az

buenas noches, kea cariño, que te duermes bien (sleep well).

az

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I haven't seen anyone abusing you, Della, just confronting you on some of the postings you have made here. It *is* a debate forum after all.

As for your name, I am more comfortable to keep calling you Della. A short form of A-del(la)-aide. Consider that you used to be both Della and Adele, then after a brief unfortunate name change to Annie Laurie you seem to have finally decided on Adelaide.

It's quite common for people to use short forms of user names when speaking to fellow researchers. Most people find 'azahar' too long to write so they call me 'az'. I find 'Adelaide' too long, so I shall call you 'Della'.

az

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Eowyn was allowed to fight in the film? Did we see the same film? In the book she sneaks off to battle and kills the King of the Nazgûl just like in the film.

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I actually thought they chose too young an actor to play Aragorn as he was meant to have suffered through many many years of hardship as a ranger. In the book I pictured him in his fifties at least. The elves are eternally young. Hence, um, they look young. How is this a typically *American* touch?

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He has also brought to life, on film, an incredibly difficult story to contain on film. He dedicated years of his life to it. Although I was disappointed in some aspects of it I consider the project as a whole to be quite a success.

No, it isn't hard to tell that you don't like the guy, Della. How do you know he is unpleasant? What the hell is a nerk?


az

I have heard that the basis of the wars in the lotr were hitlers actions and the subsequent conflicts, but none of this can be used as an argument to promote racism by neo nazi scum, when we think of it with all the racism going on in the early part of the 20th century tolkein as well as a good chunk of the western world were still very naive when it came to inter racial harmony it was un-heard of, people were still using people as slaves in the 30's......i think the lotr argument is pointless.... sorry anhaga

>> people were still using people as slaves in the 30'

Still are, hon, still are:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAFR590041999

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAFR380032002

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGEUR700172003

B

kea wrote: "I can't see the point *artistically* in writing stereotypes at all"

They're useful shorthand when you haven't got time for a fully developed character.

Total Recall? The villains (Ronny Cox/Michael Ironside/Sharon Stone) were as white as the ace of Tippex! Unless you mean the mutant turncoat, but he was a pretty minor part compared to those three.

Adelaide/Della/Adele/whatever wrote: "Heaps of people call me a fundamentalist."

And it never seems to have occurred to you that there might be a reason for that, or to wonder WHY this is such a prevalent attitude. Your lack of self-awareness and introspection is, however, entirely typical of fundamentalists. Justin the Preacher had precisely the same trait.

If "heaps" of people who had never met me unanimously agreed *I* was something, I think I'd take it as an indication of something, something I should perhaps pay attention to. You, on the other hand, simply say "I ain't", and move on. Bravo.

And my mind is NOT closed on the subject. I shall praise you to the skies the day you exhibit a glimmer of intelligence and stop lying and simply making up "facts" when you need something to support your feeble arguments. For instance:

1. directed at kea: "I note that Hoo took the fullest (expected) advantage of the opening you gave him..." - YOU gave me the opening Della. Nobody else. Take some responsibility for once, do.

2. To FB: "Who *is* this Della person you are abusing?" - You know full well who he means. Your wish to disassociate yourself from your previous behaviour is perfectly understandable, and quite disingenuous.

3. "Dave Prowse was forbidden to do the voice of Darth Vader ... because he is a Northerner" - you see, that's what I've come to expect from you, Adelaide/Della/Adele. You say something simple, straightforward, and completely, hilariously, stupidly WRONG. Something it would take an eight-year old thirty seconds to check on any one of thousands of available sites. And when your cavalier attitude to the truth is pointed out, you get uppity and defensive.

"he knows (and was probably responsible for) me having to change...

Adelaide/Della/Adele: only one person was responsible for your multiplicity of names - you. Only one person is responsible for the deception you kept up that "Adele" was some fictional sister of yours. Only one person was responsible for the death threat you made which you changed your name to avoid association with.

You're an adult, alledgedly (although frankly I wouldn't trust you to be telling the truth about even that), so take some grownup responsibility for your actions for once, woman.

kea wrote: "the short-comings of H.'s question. He asked for a BLACK villian and I gave one."

Hmm. DV dresses in black. He has the voice of a black man. But he IS white (you eventually discover), and more importantly if you take the first film in isolation he is the iron fist of a regime which governed, on the available evidence, by an INCREDIBLY homogenous bunch. Consider: on Tatooine alone we see representatives of at least three dozen intelligent species. Yet over the course of three full films every single one of the Empire's staff (stormtroopers aside) is human, white, male and more than likely English accented.

Ben wrote: "[language] is one of our major tools for thinking. In fact I can only think of a few others, and they are all, without exception, technical or mathematical."

What about pictures? I mean just simple graphic images. Feynman's example is the shape of a crankshaft. Nothing technical about the way I think about that, it's just a picture, and a pretty fuzzy one at that - but no details, maths, or words. Not a criticism, just an observation.

az wrote: James Earl Jones is British???

Excellent point!

H.

Well this has been interesting apart from the new zealand connection,
i'm suprised della did not go and voice her " " add your own
inserts , i actualy met tolkeins daughter or may have been daughter in law through a freind in Brixam in the mid ninties and several other people that knew him no hint of chauvinism or any negative
traits, as to style of writeing and inclusion of women its hard i suppose for " " some those under thirty to appreciate that women had not had the role in society that they had today till the late fifties,most of the literture of the time also was slanted to wards
men.notwithstanding the effects burlesque had in stereotypeing actors/ess (princibal boys played by young girls)


leading to black and white,every one knows the bad cowboys wear the black hats.even if they spoke with a oxford accent,given that most films is/was made for a european viewing public it should be no suprise re castings,! as to connections re good and bad and communication of thought
"[language] is one of our major tools for thinking. In fact I can only think of a few others, and they are all, without exception, technical or mathematical."
surely these are more tools for communicating these we or i tend to think in more in images, taken with colour mathamatical thinking i also feel is more image driven ,than lanquage show a simple sum to almost any lanquage speaker and they will understand it without the need for words,likewise behaviours patterns can be controlled by coulours univerealy, oops rambleing again

i forgot say was not a large part of it filmed in new zealand over a long period of time, why is della now bringing up her views?

Perhaps she was refused a job as an extra?

az

Surely they wouldn't have turned her down? Think of all the money they'd save on orc makeup...

H.

Now boys!

btw, FB, doesn't raccoon have a double c?


az

only when wearing tight trousers, or is that high c. racoon raccoon supose depend which side of tracks your on or side's of pond