h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>>Yes, but in Star Wars (the original film) he _looks_ BLACK, which is the criteria that I got from H.'s post. >>

What on earth is that supposed to mean? Darth Vader has to be the most racially neutral characters ever, not a single inch of his skin is visible. He's only 'black' in the same way as my black jeans are black, which has got nothing to do with the context of race.

Dave Prowse acted as Darth Vader, but not in the helmet removal scene. And he isn't a Northerner, he's from the west country. I for one would have loved to have heard DV saying "The Force is strong in this 'un."

What does "Intelectually Fundamentalist" mean? And is issues a euphenism to try to keep this site clean?

I think that the best analysis of racism in Star Wars was in "Chasing Amy" Apologies for not being able to find a url for it, so here it is.

Hooper : Now my book, White-Hating C**n, Doesn't have any of that bullshit. The hero's name is Maleekwa, and he's a descendant of the black tribe that established the first society on the planet, while all you European m***********s were still hiding in caves and shit all terrified of the sun. He's a strong role model that a young black reader can look up to. 'Cause I'm here to tell you -- the chickens are comin' home to roost, ya'll: The black man's no longer gonna play the minstrel in the medium of comics and Sci-Fi/Fantasy! We're keeping it real, and we're gonna get respect -- by any means necessary!

Holden : That's a bunch of bullshit! Lando Calrissian was a black man, and he got to fly the Millenium Falcon!

Hooper : Who said that?

Holden : I did! Lando Calrissian is a positive black role model in the realm of Science Fiction / Fantasy.

Hooper : F**k Lando Calrissian! Uncle Tom N****r! Always some white boy gotta invoke "the holy trilogy'! Bust this -- those movies are about how the white man keeps the brother man down -- even in a galazy far, far away. Check this shit: You got Cracker farmboy Luke Skywalker; Nazi poster boy -- blond hair, blue eyes. And then you've got Darth Vader: The blackest brother in the Galaxy. Nubian God.

Banky : What's a Nubian?

Hooper : Shut the f**k up! Now Vader, he's a spiritual brother, with the Force and all that shit. Then this cracker Skywalker gets his hands on a light-saber, and the boy decides he's gonna run the f*****g universe -- gets a whole klan of whites togeather, and they're gonna bust up Vader's 'hood -- the Death Star. Now what the f**k do you call that?

Banky : Intergalactic Civil War?

Hooper : Gentrification. They're gonna drive out the black element, to make the galazy quote, unquote safe for white folks.

Holden : But Vader turns out to be Luke's father.

Hooper : Don't make me bust a cap in your ass, yo! Jedi's the most insulting installment, because Vader's beautiful, black visage is sullied when he pulls off his mask to reveal a feeble, crusty old white man! They're trying to tell us that deep inside, we all want to be white!

Banky : Well, isn't that true?

May I then call you Weaselracoon? It's how I choose to address you, and if you have a problem with it...


Now, Goodnight All!

>>Then came the bitter stuff. I think I'll leave it out. It was mostly about some of the explicitly nasty bits that Tolkien put into some of his work. No point in stirring it up anymore.<<


anhaga, I'm not sure why you are sorry you started this. Care to explain?

I would be interested in your further views on the original subject

>>What does "Intelectually Fundamentalist" mean?<<

Well to answer that would possibly invite a major derailment of the thread which I am not inclined to do. Suffice to say that I think Della and Hoo are as bad as each other, and deserve each other too .

Okay kea, I'll try to be quick as I have to leave (the house):


I've read Tolkien for decades. I've studied the works Tolkien studied. The last time through the Lord of the Rings some very subtle bits came to my attention (general segregation of the intelligent species, although they work together, depiction of the Haradrim and Southrons as not worth much consideration of redemption). Taking these together with the culture of the time, and with Tolkien's own rather discomfitting comments in his other writings, and emphasised by Jackson's third film which I had just seen, I thought I'd ask whether anyone else felt the same way.

I did not expect to be accused of being PC (a particularly grotesque insult) or of being racist (another particularly grotesque insult). I am disappointed.

Just so everybody knows, in Tolkien's very influential scholarly article "Beowulf: the Monsters and the Critics", Tolkien gratuitously offers his worship to the "noble Northern Spirit" of Germanic culture, looks down on the Celts and ridicules the French. And, in a letter to his son in 1941 Tolkien remarked that he hated Hitler because Hitler had forever sullied the Noble Northern Spirit which Tolkien loved so well and which found its greatest expression in English culture.

The guy was of his time and his time had a lot of warts. I don't think it was out of line for me to ask the question. Some apparently did think so.

If some would like to know about Tolkien, I suggest they read what he wrote. I have. And, as I've said, I admire and respect the man and his work. But to use allegory (of which Tolkien was very fond, despite his words to the contrary) I would recognize the clay feet of the giant and climb over them to get the view from his shoulder rather than lying at the giant's feet constantly staring at the distant laurels of his crown.

>>>

>>Yes, but in Star Wars (the original film) he _looks_ BLACK, which is the criteria that I got from H.'s post. >>
What on earth is that supposed to mean? Darth Vader has to be the most racially neutral characters ever, not a single inch of his skin is visible. He's only 'black' in the same way as my black jeans are black, which has got nothing to do with the context of race.

<<<

I'm not sure what I was trying to say exactly.

That the West culturally personifies Evil by the colour Black and Good by the colour White, and that this is connected to the West's inherent racism. I don't agree that DV is the most racially neutral character ever, mainly because of the cultural context the film was made in.

Or maybe I was just wanting to point out the short-comings of H.'s question. He asked for a BLACK villian and I gave one.

See I think a more relevant question might be - How many mainstream movies are there where the characters are predominantly non-caucasian? And to what extent has this changed over the last 20 or 40 years, and why?

But then I'm still not sure I understand what H.'s point was.

*

Dibs I haven't seen Chasing Amy, so am not sure if I am reading that in context. It was pretty hilarious though.

No problem Della, have updated my nickname just to make sure you remember ...

<>

I don't think I can agree with that, I think it's more related to light and dark, as in 'step into the light'. The colour white (well, the visual property white, as neither black nor white are strictly speaking colours) is associated with purity, and black is the opposite, and associated with sullied things.

Surely no-one would suggest that the phrase 'black-hearted', or a 'black mood' is racist?

>> Surely no-one would suggest that the phrase 'black-hearted', or a 'black mood' is racist?

And I had never thought of you as naive before, Kerr!

B

All right then:

"Surely no-one that doesn't have far too much time on their hands and doesn't need a good slapping would suggest that the phrase 'black-hearted', or a 'black mood' is racist? "

B
*off to do better things with her time and her hands than hang out on the internet*

Sighs in anticipation of the PC gone mad reaction but...

Surely the language and phrasology we use have an impact on the way we think. Therfore I think it is possible to connotations of words and phrases can have an impact in forming and sustaining beliefs and veiws.

For example "Queer" is a term (at least in the UK) for a gay man. However another meaning of the word is Strange, odd, different. By using the term "Queer" to refer to gay men is it not re-enforcing subtly that there is something Stange, Odd, Different about what they do?

Now could that same priciple potentially apply to terms like black mood or black magic?

Thanks anhaga.

It was the depiction of the Haradrim and the Southrons that came to mind for me when I read your original post. It was those depictions* that first made me think about racism in LotR. Also the fact that all the bad people came from the East. It's been awhile since I read it, so I don't remember the exact detail, but I do remember those first feelings of discomfit. Interesting because that is near the end of the book.

*It reminds me of an elderly family member of mine who when they met a man of African descent for the first time, said "What a nice man" in a kind of surprise. It was so totally out of their life experience (they lived in a very white place), and they were of that generation that wasn't so much neonazi, as just socialised into thinking Africans were somehow inferior, and they had no experience to tell them differently.

This is why I find conversations like this so important and interesting. The degree to which people think stupid things because that is the norm (I'm not talking about people here).

So when I first started thinking about racism in LotR, I suppose I thought of Tolkein in those terms, which is why I am interested in to what extent he was conscious of such issues. I would be like to read what he has to say about race.

I'll have a look and see what my local library has of Tolkein's essays and criticism. Do you have any recommendations?


>>Just so everybody knows, in Tolkien's very influential scholarly article "Beowulf: the Monsters and the Critics", Tolkien gratuitously offers his worship to the "noble Northern Spirit" of Germanic culture, looks down on the Celts and ridicules the French. And, in a letter to his son in 1941 Tolkien remarked that he hated Hitler because Hitler had forever sullied the Noble Northern Spirit which Tolkien loved so well and which found its greatest expression in English culture.<<

I'm curious about this. What is it you see about him worshipping the noble Northern Spirit? That he elevates it above other peoples?



I wouldn't worry too much about the insults, this is h2 after all. I'm finding the (over)reaction curious. Although I can understand people feeling upset when they realise a cherished thing is not so pure (or other people are saying it's not so pure).

slightly off topic:
I seem to recall that in most westerns, the baddies tended to be dressed in dark, sombre clothes whereas the hero wore light, colourful garb. Skin colour was irrelevant.

Perhaps movie makers thought that the watching public needed to be able to easily identify who was who.

When Star Wars came out, I thought it was an excellent touch to have the empire troops all in white, though they were the baddies.

No, because the derivation is totally unrelated to the colour of a person's skin.

For instance, the term 'blackguard', as used to describe someone with no morals is a 15th century term originally used to describe the lowest group in a household. They were called 'the black guard' because the nature of their duties meant they were permanently filthy.

Totally unrelated to race.

That was a reply to Mr. Weaselraccon

>>>

<>

I don't think I can agree with that, I think it's more related to light and dark, as in 'step into the light'. The colour white (well, the visual property white, as neither black nor white are strictly speaking colours) is associated with purity, and black is the opposite, and associated with sullied things.

>>>

I think that is true about light and dark. Values like purity and sulliness are culturally specific and not all culture ascribe them in that way.


>>>Surely no-one would suggest that the phrase 'black-hearted', or a 'black mood' is racist?<<<

I don't think those phrases are racist in and of themselves no.

What is racist is though is when a culture that is 'white' oppresses peoples that are not white and are seen as 'black' and that oppressing culture also just happens to have a language where the good things are white and the bad things are black. That is not a coincidence.

Can you imagine a world where black-hearted meant generous, or black mood was one of deepness and mystery?

Fair one Kerr!

Despite that however, in other contexts (such as the example I used) language does have an effect on thought and consequently we should from time to time evaluate the impact of what we say. But I do accept that often this is not the case and these terms are often innocent.

Weaselraccoon



I love the word queer. I know people that use it with absolutely no irony in it's original meaning. You don't hear that so much these days.

I'm also familiar with the queer community and love how the damage of the accusation of the word has been turned around

Sometimes, quite often actually, I want to use 'queer' in it's original meaning but don't because I' m worried I will be misconstrued



Kerr, I wonder if the reason English ended up with so many negative connotations attached to the word black is because it is the 'other',in terms of what the English are not.

I'd be interested to know how this plays out in non-English caucasian languages/cultures.