h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Re Troy

As I understand it modern arceological evidence supports the existance of Troy in a very strategic location between East and west, there is good evidence it was rebuilt many times, and that on at least one occasion it was destroyed by Fire followng a lengthy siege of close to a decade. The Wooden Horse is usualy thought to be a reference to a 'first use' of siege engines in warfare, although I think that there may be other explanations. That it would have taken 10 years to come up with this idea seems reasonable since a lot of very obvious ideas appeared to take a long time for anyone to realise they were a good idea. I for one feel like the Phalanx was obvious, and that the tortoise was too. It was 3 or 4 hundred years after Troy that some one thought that closely packed clusters of great big long spears would protect infantry from Swords. And closer to 700 years to realise that interlocked shields would protect infantry from arrows and thrown spears. The archeological Evidence also suggests that an airtight siege of the city would have been next to impossible due to the sise of it's perimiter and the fact there was more than one farm within the outer walls. Even with the occupants of a thousand ships, which was probably not more than 40,000 men.

This demonstrates the maxim 'the inevitability of gradualness'

Achillies (OR More likely Agemenmon) would not have read Sun Tsu for the very obvious reason that Homers poem, and the archeological evidence suggests that it would have been at least 500 years before Sun Tsu would be born.

Celts emigrated from northern India circa 12,000 years ago, they were not ousted by the Romans, they were integrated, hence the term Romano-celtic/British. The arthurian Legends are often argued to be about the battle between the Celts and the Angles, Jutes and Saxons circa mid to late fifthe Century.

Picts were here first, and they arrived circa 25,000 years previously, and this then leads into a potentialy infinite regression through the paleolithic and beyond ending up with an original aemeboa inhabitant with an interestin neuclei and a limited line in conversation.

I definately struggle with the term Racist as applied to ordinary action and opinion in day to day life, to me the term implies intent, and where fail it is through ignorance not through intent. However I understand completely the agenda of adressing 'racist' attitudes ideas and thoughts I encounter in myself. I believe that the most difficult to adress is the concept that there is 'NO ONE TRUTH.'

There was a post earlier that just because one reader does not see a racist theme in LOTR that it does not mean there isn't one, the opposite is equally true, Just because one reader sees a racist theme in LOTR it doesn't mean there is one.

>> One good example of a wealthy organisation in the UK that was founded in order to finance slave trading is Barkleys Bank.

Interestingly - though I have not verified this - Barclays froze the BNP a/cs on the morning immediately following the broadcast of the recent documentary showing undercover filming of the BNP.


>> did anyone actually mention the BRITONS who were the indigies in the first place

Um. No. Because they weren't. See above.

B

What have I created?

Ictoan

>>That's the second time I have seen that particular line crop up on hootoo. Seems to be a staple of a particular view point that is prevalent on h2g2 at the moment.<<

I was discussing this in the descendants of slaves suing Lloyds thread a while back. I haven't seen it discussed since then, but would be happy to know where else it has been.


>>So could someone explain the following to me? (all hypothetical I hasten to add).
"Am I racist? Yes, I do the following things, hold the following opinions, act in the following ways."
"Am I racist? No, I do nothing, think nothing, and act in no way which could be defined as racist."
"In what ways am I racist? I do the following things."<<

I can't follow that at all - do you want to rephrase your point?

>>Seems to me that the 'in what ways am I racist' carries with it the assumption that I *am* racist. And that is not necessarily so.<<

Well you could ask yourself in what ways are you racist, and answer none. That kind of defeats the purpose though.

If you are white I will ask you if you have never done or felt or thought anything racist in your life (including being tacitly complicit with racism)? If you are not white, it becomes more complex and I may not be the best person to be asking the question.

I think it is virtually impossible for a white person to not find more complex answers from "in what ways am I racist?" than "Am I racist?" Most white people are going to answer no to the second one whether it is true or not.

I have to say again that I have a broad definition of what racism is. It's not confined to race hatred, and it includes the kinds of racism that are inherent throughout white cultures that we are only going to be able to address if we can be honest about them.


I concede that I am familiar with the question from anti-racism work which carries with it the idea of self awareness (to what extent that is true is another matter) and responsibility.

I don't really accept that asking the question is bad because people might end up feeling bad about themselves though. If they do then the solution to that is to address the underlying reasons for feeling bad, not to deny them.

>>Of course, all the above assume one is honest with oneself and can hold a purely objective view of oneself, a feat that is in no way guarunteed. <<

Maybe. I recently read a long involved piece by someone who had been very involved with anti-racism work and had ended up feeling that it was being used to perpetuate the racist status quo, so there is the danger of thinking one is more aware than one is (this may be similar to what SD is referring to in terms of people not acting their beliefs). You still have to ask the difficult questions though.

I don't believe that pure objectivity is desirable (or even possible). I think honesty, openness, willingness, courage are perhaps more useful things to attempt.

look i dont have all the answers from history, but i can tell you that i am sure it is possible to launch an object into space using medieval materials. if you look at my other threads you will see this is no idle boast when i tell you i will try to prove such.

my point is that the whole world seems to have some sort of brain inhibiter through out the entire of history, because i have only an average iq by the mensa type tests, but i can spout inventions all day long.
i am on the verge of becoming fully public with my plans, but what i dont get is why others in history have not made it.
i am aware that science is revealing all now and that religion was a neccesary stop gap to explain most of the unexplainable, but som real scary mysteries about human knowlege remain...have we been further than this already and then got put bak with a false history? could it be possible for a higher tech alien nation to do this. im just talking feasability study here.
GiGabaNE (of the 13th zodiac)

>>Seems to me that the 'in what ways am I racist' carries with it the assumption that I *am* racist. And that is not necessarily so.<<

It is always useful to challenge presuppositions, (even the presupposition that it is always useful to challenge presuppostions). It is, however, scary. One is never entirely sure where it is going to take one.


>> what i dont get is why others in history have not made it.

'cos they were dumb f**kers, obviously. Much dumber than us. Natch.

B

>>I definately struggle with the term Racist as applied to ordinary action and opinion in day to day life, to me the term implies intent, and where fail it is through ignorance not through intent. <<

I think there are difficulties too in using the term Racism in a broader way (to include unintentional). I haven't been able to think of any other terms to use yet though (an interesting thing that we only have the one word in English to express a range of concepts).


>>However I understand completely the agenda of adressing 'racist' attitudes ideas and thoughts I encounter in myself.
<<

I think this is a useful way of a responding to the "in what ways" question.



>>There was a post earlier that just because one reader does not see a racist theme in LOTR that it does not mean there isn't one, the opposite is equally true, Just because one reader sees a racist theme in LOTR it doesn't mean there is one.<<

In line with Ben's physics analogy (the book is a wave and a particle), it might be said that racism 'has a tendancy to exist' in LotR depending on how it is observed.

>>look i dont have all the answers from history, but i can tell you that i am sure it is possible to launch an object into space using medieval materials. ...
my point is that the whole world seems to have some sort of brain inhibiter through out the entire of history, because i have only an average iq by the mensa type tests, but i can spout inventions all day long.<<

Not figuring out how to hurl something into space can only be seen as dumb if you think hurling something into space is a good idea. Personally I think we should stay out of outer space until we have our home in order.


>>i am aware that science is revealing all now and that religion was a neccesary stop gap to explain most of the unexplainable, but som real scary mysteries about human knowlege remain...<<

Stick around h2 long enough and you will find yourself at home with many adherents of your religion (Mighty Science).

I know you don't like reading stuff, but if you change your mind check out some of the parallels between quantum physics and the Eastern religions. The buddhists and co have been describing for thousands of years what the new sciences are now just getting to.

'In line with Ben's physics analogy (the book is a wave and a particle), it might be said that racism 'has a tendancy to exist' in LotR depending on how it is observed.'


Re Medievial Appolo Mission

I dont think this generation is much smarter than the ones that have gone before, I think the difference is that ideas are cumulative.

It was not possible for even the smartest of medieval thinkers (Da Vinchi for instance) to build an appolo Space Craft because there were too many unknown steps to develop first. Most ideas seem obvious after they are discovered, before then they seem impossible and it is this impossibility which has to be overcome first. Da Vinchi did better than most in working a lot of things out and he was way ahead of his time, but it needs more than one man, and Davinchi had big problems finding anyone but himself who understood what he was talking about.

The Appolo missions are interestingly enough a good example.

before and followng Kennedy's anouncement of a project to go to the moon, there was intense debate about how this was t be done. Two options dominated. 1) Single vehicle, and 2)Earth orbit Transfer, Single vehicle required a rocket that would have dwarfed the Saturn Five, and Earth Orbit Transfer would have required two Saturn Fives.
This argument went on for about Five Years.

Somewhere a man who's name I forget for the moment, came up with the idea of Lunar Orbit Transfer, this required one saturn Five. His idea was dissmissed as crazy and unworkable for five whole years until he finaly persuaded someone by jumping several layers of authoriy, Once it was adopted it was obvious to everyone at NASA that it was the only workable option at that time.

Inteligence is one thing that can help work out a problem, but with Knowledge, especially the knowledge of others who have worked out bits of the problem already, intelligence can only take you so far.

Da Vinchi was clearly as smart, if not sarter than Einstein but he would have had to talk to Newton to develop the special theory of relativity on his own.

>> What have I created? <<

You tell us.

It wasn't the moon and the stars that's for sure.

And that whole 'separating the day from the night thing' that god created in Genesis is just too simplistic for modern folks in a ying-and-yang, two-faced, two-sides-to-every-story kinda way.

You are far more devious than that. You know we can't just see things in terms of black and white. It's always far more complicated than that.

But hey, did you know that halitosis is a modern made up word, created by the Listerine company? It sounds like it comes from classic Greek but it's just from modern greed.


~jwf~

Gigabane:

Where to start? (probably would be better not to start, but here goes.)

Albania. That's a good name for your country. Or maybe North Korea.

But tell us: why is it that someone who says "i can spout inventions all day long" can't come up with a country name on their own?

"i am sure it is possible to launch an object into space using medieval materials"

(don't read the following. It might corrupt your thinking.)

I'm pretty sure it is, too. My team is working on launching a golf ball 1500 feet with Mediaeval materials. I'm sure we could scale it up and put a hole in the scaled composites of SpaceShipOne. So what? Frankly, the feat would have nothing other than recreational value. What's your point? Is it that you argue that moderns think the Mediaeval mind was blinkered and the Mediaeval mind wasn't really blinkered? If that's your argument, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but it's nothing new. Those who bother to read know that the European Middle Ages produced more inventions than the entire Roman Republican and Imperial periods. And these are inventions which are still at the heart of our industrial world. But you wouldn't know this since you don't read.

So, you've decided that Tolkien knew nothing of military strategy on the basis of the films and your experience of computer games -- I mean, simulations. Well, I'm sure that Tolkien's experience of trench warfare gave him no understanding of military strategy. I'm also sure his reading of von Clauswitz helped not a bit.

If you are really experimenting with Mediaeval materials directed at launching a projectile, you would certainly never have suggested that it would be easy to poke holes in walls with lobbed objects. Lobbing objects is notoriously difficult, particularly objects large enough to do damage to a distant wall. (the trebuchets on the walls of Minas Tirith in the Return of the King are visually impressive, but simply preposterous in their range and calibre).

But, Gigabane: good luck with your efforts, both political and lobbing. (I'm sure you'll need the luck since you've already drawn a line in the sand against the U.S.)

And, ~jwf~: my "what have I created" question referred to this thread and the ramifications I never could have anticipated when I asked the simple initial question.

>> "what have I created"

Just another fine example of the hootoo drift in action...

We've enjoyed it, and still are, for that matter.

B

It's a fascinating and thought provoking thread. be proud.

although, it must be said, the random arrival of a purveyor of new world orders and medieval space catapults couldn;t have been predicted by even the best of us!

No, that was just dumb, but very good, luck!

>> purveyor of ... medieval space catapults couldn't have been predicted by even the best of us!

Where can you find a good rocket scientist when you need one?

I am reminded of Lilithcookie's seminal entry on medieval vibrators. I would lay a down in the thread at this point, but are far more appropriate.

B

"i can tell you that i am sure it is possible to launch an object into space using medieval materials"

Whoopety f**kin doo. So what? The Chinese make their satellite reentry heat shields out of oak panelling - fact. Is there a point to this rambling?

"if you look at my other threads you will see this is no idle boast when i tell you i will try to prove such."

I've looked at your other threads and all I see are poorly spelled idle boasts. If you're sitting on what you say you're sitting on, then coming here to tell us about it is a criminal waste of your apparently oh-so-precious time, which makes you a moron. If you're not - well, that makes you a moron too, one with a bit of a problem telling fantasy from reality. The internet is infested with freaks like you. Welcome to h2g2.

"my point is that the whole world seems to have some sort of brain inhibiter through out the entire of history"

You demonstrate a blinkered and ignorant view of history.

"i have only an average iq by the mensa type tests"

Take the hint.

"but i can spout inventions all day long."

So can I. So can my two year old nephew. Spouting, however, is ALL you seem capable of. Put your money where your mouth is and point to something you've DONE, then maybe we'll all start to regard you with a little less contempt.

"i am on the verge of becoming fully public with my plans, but what i dont get is why others in history have not made it."

Think about it.

The answer is - your plans are flaky nonsense.

Please - prove me wrong. I won't hold my breath...

"have we been further than this already and then got put bak with a false history?"

I suggest you read "The Witches of Chiswick" by Robert Rankin. Hilarious stuff, and a good deal more creative than your fantasies. It also has a plot.

It pains me to come across so judgemental, Gig (can I call you Gig? You make me giggle, see...), it really does. But the plain fact of the matter is you seem very impressed with yourself and your abilities, while simultaneously offering no evidence at all that you're anything other than quite a sad fantasist of the type which infest the internet like lice. Prove me wrong, do. Demonstrate some sliver of understanding of human nature or politics or physics or any kind of reality external to yourself. Better still, stop wittering on to us about what you're going to do and just damn well get on and DO it. Until you do, what you post here is just noise. Slightly entertaining noise, in a tragic way, but noise nevertheless.

Prove me wrong.

H.

*sits back in deck-chair, opens bottle of wine, offers sandwiches to the assembled company, and gets ready to watch the show*

Anyone want some wine? I've also got flans and tomatoes in this picnic hamper.

B

~Welcome to h2g2 Hoo style~

(although Kerr is doing a pretty good job on the other thread too).

Thanks Ben. I'd stay and watch the show but I have to get some sleep