h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Well that's all right then.

"It's Hermione who's a mudblood, anhaga. Harry and Ron are pure bloods."



You see? Race doesn't matter!




(My problem with Rowling is, you read the books over and over and you still can't remember a bloody thing that happens.)

Interesting point about 'effect' and 'intent', Ben.
I tend to agree with it, on reflection, and it was really what I was getting at last night when I posted after a few to many s.

I don't think Tolkien 'intended' the wretched book to be anything other than an amusing diversion for himself and a select audience. That it should be voted the best book ever in some silly poll was the last thing on his mind, and i know for a fact that he was deeply ambivalent about the way in which the book had become almost deified. I do, however, suspect he was a bright enough man to understand that any book will be interpeted by it's audience (it seems to me that that interpretation is a necessary function of the reader) whatever the the wishes of the author.

And more to the point, I suspect he was also bright enough to know unless a book is capable of that type of analysis, it's lifespan would be pretty short. Certainly it's possible to read LotR as a simple fairy story, a tale of good vs. evil with a cast of midgets with furry feet. Which is great for twelve year olds, but pretty pointless for anyone over the age of 15.

The WWII analogy is an interesting one because that was the last time in the 20th century that single monolithic 'evil' has presented itself. As the century progressed and turned into the 21st century, our experience of war has become increasingly akin 'Catch 22'. We *know* war is nasty and unpleasant, just as it is for the Fellowship and the other characters in LotR, but to be honest, we now also know that it is chaotic, stupid and, on an individual level, deeply unheroic, and often farcical. (And while I'm at it, would it have killed Tolkien to have put a *joke* in the nearly 800 pages of LotR?)

LotR, to me, is begining to show it's age. It is about an age that i don't really recognise. I can sympathise with Tolkiens intent in writing it (and have a sneaking regard for a man who held that The Norman invasion was 'a bad thing' and that it represented the end of history as we know it), but it's effect on me is irritation and frustration.

>> The WWII analogy is an interesting one because that was the last time in the 20th century that single monolithic 'evil' has presented itself.

Well the Bush Administration feels pretty much like that from this side of the Atlantic, but we really *shouldn't* go into that one here...





B

Ben - Often one's reaction to a work says more about the person reacting than about the work.

Absolutely.

Blicky - Yet its important that people are aware of the messages they are subject to when they read or watch because art does have an affect on how we think.

That's the problem isn't it - people aren't always aware of how they are affected by what they read, see & hear. Nor are they always aware of the difference between fiction & fact.

There have been some other comments about the global 'badness' of designated races within LOTR. It occurs in many other books too. Surely it's up to the author whether or not to use central characters from different backgrounds and to determine how the principal characters view others.
The main characters in LOTR are not flawless. I find that stories where the main characters are all good/bad are usually less plausible & I don't enjoy them.

>> (And while I'm at it, would it have killed Tolkien to have put a *joke* in the nearly 800 pages of LotR?)


THAT'S what I dislike about the bloody book. I couldn't put my finger on it, but it is like reading about a bunch of frigging Accenture consultants.

Thank you so much for bringing me that epiphany! I feel better now.

Ben

having studied tactics, managment and various other skills as well as over 400 hrs simulation on over 50 platforms, i think i can safely say that tolkien did not have a clue about real warfare tactics, or maybe the film traslated wrong, but from the descriptions and the film all of the human cities where pitifully defended, did tolkin really think that the kings of old were no brainers with no imagination.

on a similar note. anyone seen helen of troy?
same problem except this one is meant to be reality.
are you seriously telling me that the walls of troy stood for a decade and not a single person thought of lobbing sharpened trees and large rocks at the walls.

If this is what really happened then i am terrified that our minds are being chemicaly suppressed or somthing by aliens!!!

i am not joking, there are many indiscrepancies like that through out history that just dont make sence.

i consider myself a thinker and as such i invent things on a regular basis, just for the fun of it.
give me a problem and you can be assured that eventually i will come up with a solution, however longwinded and bizzare.
i cant believe that there arn't many others like me in the world and throu out history.
i know i plan to start a country through business and then we will see just how unique my style is..
dont get me wrong i am not conceited, its just that i realised along time ago that you only get one life. i dont believe in an afterlife so for someone like me, the quest to end death and find the truth of everything is all consuming....
if anyone out there whith some serious business or web skills is willing to dedicate their life to the founding of a new empire then talk to me and well make the future together. all it takes is humans and the land working together in unity of a common cause.
i name the cause . immortality and a new home among the stars.
GiGaBaNE (of the 13th Zodiak)

>That's the problem isn't it - people aren't always aware of how they are affected by what they read, see & hear. Nor are they always aware of the difference between fiction & fact.<

I'd go further and say 'are very rarely aware'. I know some years ago that the Sun was considered by most of it's readers to be somewhat left-wing...And in the age of the infomercial and faction on tv, I think the line between fact and fiction is so blurred as to be almost non-existent in most people's minds - how many work colleagues do you know who will discuss the latest plot line on Eastenders as though it's real?

But i think there must be a distinction between those areas where that blurring is intentional - infomercials, for example, and those areas where there is no intent to deceive, and i think Tolkien falls firmly into the latter category. I think his intention was honest, but he falls victim to the reader.

Ben, glad to be of service.

"it is like reading about a bunch of frigging Accenture consultants."
And Quote of the Thread award goes to Ben

On a somewhat slant, do those who have read the Silmarillion feel it follows through into there also? I personally have somewhat contradictory thoughts about the whole thing.
If the premise is that a particular race has been created by a 'god' (for want of a better word) complete with certain characteristics, then is it racist to view every member of that species as having those qualities? As I seem to recall certain ones were.
I seem to recall in the Silmarrillion that various of the Elven sub species had done some pretty despicable things. Usually under the influence of evil superior beings or through misunderstandings. And then due to their society where all follow the one they all take on those assumptions and opinions.
As for the North men and the Southron races of human, I seem to recall there were certain reasons as to why they joined the side they did, not just that they were inherently evil or bad. And I don;t think all of them did. But I've reached, and indeed suyrpassed, the limits of my recollection of JRRT.

Question is now, can I be bothered to slog through the first quarter of The Silmarillion to find out?

>are you seriously telling me that the walls of troy stood for a decade and not a single person thought of lobbing sharpened trees and large rocks at the walls.<

Umm, yuh, actually. Go to the Med sometime, look at the islands. The absence of large trees which can be made pointy or indeed be made into apparatus with which to throw large rocks is a big feature, you'll find.

Besides, siege warfare was totally alien to the nature of the Greeks at the time. Just as we now know that trench warfare as practised in WWi was insanity, some greek military practices look decidely iffy by todays standards.

i used to read a lot, my main passion was for medieval fantasy, but to be honest i have lost all passion for reading. in order to think for myself i have pretty much gon into intillectual isolation, dosnt seem to matter whether its fact or fiction, there is always someone elses slur on the truth.

now i spend most of my time in pure education and running a few mini business to fund the new empire.
whith what little i have left of my time i spend either playing computer games that seem to have skills relevent to mass managment and business and warfare.
the only other thing i do is look for the one woman i can trust to litteraly spend an eternety with, almost certainly on a new planet.

you may laugh, but how many people are really willing to spend decades of their life on a singular cause.
most people are afraid to hope,, we couldn't dare beleive immortality is possible.
well believe, cause it will exist in reality within a decade, but it will probably be suppressed by the governments.
hence my need for a country of my own...

>hence my need for a country of my own...

I believe there's fairly reasonable pieces of the east going quite cheap...

Try Molvania, a land untouched by modern dentistry...

>> in order to think for myself i have pretty much gon into intillectual isolation, dosnt seem to matter whether its fact or fiction, there is always someone elses slur on the truth.

I dunno - I think the quote of the thread goes to this guy. I love the simplicity that thinks that you can apply the definite article to 'truth'.

B

It's certainly one of the better (and more entertaining) off-topic diversions I've had the pleasure o be part of in my time here...

I mean, at least it stopped us talking about Harry bl**dy Potter.

Ben et al, I never tried say there were no other elements to the book(s).

Some have categorically denied a racist framework within the story though. I think those who have just dont *want* to see it even when its pointed out. Its there and I dont get upset about it. The book is a period peice based on peices from a previous period to that, surprise, surprise it ends up littered with old fashioned out modded notions.

jwf, I have a lot to say to you but it will have to wait.

im more refering to the bright spark that creates tactics and war machines rather than the actuall macines themselfs.
i will go to the med and examine what i can, to make a simulation.
i am pretty sure that if you stuck me ther and said i have ten years to find a way to nock out a section of that wall i would have found a way.
the trench tactics and roman tactics and so on.
the reason that these all inevitably fail is the fact that they are war tactics and not equipment specific tactics.

what i mean is that in any era the chief job of a tactician shouldnt be to use the best plans laid out by some admin body, but to best calculate current technology into the most efficient combined unit you can make at the time.

you are meant to know yourself completly before you even look at you enemy. sun tzu had the right of it but im afraid he never put enough emphasis on that for people to really understand.
GiGaBaNE (of the 13th zodiac)

>> im more refering to the bright spark that creates tactics and war machines

Oddeyseus.

(Now *there* was a man who was sex on legs! - What is it about clever men, I wonder?)

B

PS - You do know that the Trojan war is a myth, don't you?

Great ideas. So all Achilles had to do was get out his copy of sun tzu, study books about world war one and the roman empire.

Can you see why he couldnt.