h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Azahar, no wonder you had difficulty sleeping. Gutsy and from the heart. I hope that sharing your story has been therapeutic and that it will help shed some clarity on the issues.

Okay, am awash in much love and hugs and stuff here - truly truly appreciated.

But now - can we go back to our regular scheduled programme?

I said my bit. Would like to now hear others say theirs - even (or perhaps especially) the Nerd.

much love,
az

Excuse me, when I said that about azahar's post, it seems several people typed in the interval. I was talking about this:

>
Your type, in my experience are some of the most anti-life people I've ever had the misfortune to meet. One of you almost killed me. A medical doctor who gave me misinformation about my physical condition when I was pregnant. Told me I just had to 'take it easy'. He LIED to me because he was anti-abortion. I could have died. ***hole!
>

My "type"??? Your "type" shure seems to cuss alot! He should have told the truth no matter what you may decide to do with the information. However, he probably had an alternative in mind.


"pencil neck" means someone who quibbles. In some circles, it isn't even an insult at all.

About the backlog: I thought I had it all caught up almost, but now there's another two pages!

About "shooting myself in the foot": Well, I'm new, and waay outnumbered. Whaddya expect?


Now, about the baby's skull expanding too large to deliver. I saw someone in the backlog quote it from earlier in the backlog. Ah, now someone has probably sent in an answer. Is there a reference attached to this? Or is this talking about azhar's condition? I'm going to keep reading through the backlog, I think I have three or four pages left....

Being new is irrelevant. New people who are intelligent are treated with respect. Don't be such a baby.

Being outnumbered is irrelevant. This is not a physical fight. If you make sense, no amount of being outnumbered will reduce the value of your logic.

(side point - most people here disagree with you. Ever stop to wonder why?)

What do I expect? I expect you not to shoot yourself in the foot, and then again in the side of the head, by claiming things like "it isn't even an insult at all." Don't get disingenuous on us, boy, you're no good at it and we see right through you.

Try just waiting until you've done your research, read the backlog, and have something new and intelligent to say before you post again. I realise you might have to wait a long time for that last one, but hey, we're patient people here...

H.

Hi Nerd,

'your type shure seems to cuss a lot'

Well, you got me there. But then again, so f**king what?

The doctor-from-h*ll certainly did tell me his own brand of 'truth'. I can only suppose that the 'alernative' he had in mind is that I should die in order to support his own sad idea of right and wrong. Even though (have had this validated by three other doctors since) the foetus would probably never have survived the first trimester, and if it had it would have still put my life totally at risk. That even if it had self-aborted it would also have resulted in very nasty bleeding and a threat to my life.

Yes, please read the backlog and get back to us. Get with it already!

az

azahar. Thank-you for sharing your story. I know what its like to put out personal sharing like that and then freak out afterwards thinking I have said too much. Good on you for having told us though - it really helps to keep discussions like this real.


I've just read the backlog myself. Its a shame that the thread has been diverted again by Nerd42. I agree with the comment in the previous page that the so called challenge *has* been answered, by several people, including myself.

I can't be bothered going back and finding the post numbers mainly because its mainly only Nerd42 that still thinks no case has been made, and as has been said there is virtually no chance that s/he will accept anything that is presented here that disagrees with their version of reality.



btw Dilation and Extraction, and Dilation and Evacuation, don't solely apply to 'partial birth abortions' and can't be used as a synonym. Intact D and C could be. Although I think there are also other techniques where a 'pba' would be used eg where a woman is in labour (natural or induced) and the baby has to be killed in order to save the woman's life. I think the example of a stalled breech birth was given early on.

Part of the confusion about the terminology is because there are a number of different techniques and combinations of techniques used depending on the situation. From what I understand the term 'partial birth abortion' refers to one technique that may be used within a number of different kind of abortions, and is of itself not a term that can be used to describe a full abortion.

I agree its a term made up by the anti-abortion lobby and as such its a term of propoganda rather than a useful descriptive phrase,


I'd just like to pick up on cl zoomer's point about everyone here having an agenda. Was that a criticism?

My agenda is to understand what 'pba' is; to understand what the politics of the use of the term 'pba' are; to hear a range of opinions and experiences in response to the original challenge; to be able to express my opinion about the issues raised; to have an intelligent and interesting debate about the abortion issues raised (I know thats quite a high expectation, but still entirely possible within h2g2).


I've learnt a lot so far especially technically about late term abortions. I've also read some very thought provoking postings and subthreads here. Thanks to everyone so far for the input.

hi kea,

Thanks for the and the kinds words. I agree that it's been an interesting and informative thread. But I don't agree that we no longer need Nerd. I think he/she is what provokes us into thinking and looking further into this issue. Otherwise we are all just agreeing with each other. Anyhow, I hope Nerd comes back soon - and perhaps with an even funnier insulting name than Pencil Neck (that one still makes me chuckle).

Re: your comment on zoomer's 'agenda' comment. I wasn't sure about that myself and initially took it as a criticism.

Anyhow, it's been good so far. But unless Nerd comes back we have no one to inspire us to gather even more information about this topic and share it.

kissitos,
az

You might be right about Nerd. The main problem I have is that s/he doesn't seem to be really reading what people are posting and addressing the actual issues that way.

Personally after reading this thread and the links posted I feel pretty convinced that late term abortions where the baby is killed are being used because of danger to the woman's life (they may be being used in non-life threatening situations as well).

I don't have a problem with Nerd disagreeing with this, its just that I suspect they haven't read the threads properly or the links that people went and found. So their postings seem to be just more anti-abortion rhetoric.

Fine to have an anti-abortion stance I just wish it was a bit more of a thoughtful one. I can see its difficult for Nerd given the limits on their net access, and it is quite a complicated issue to understand. Still, its frustrating to see so many people doing alot of work to explore this issue and not having that respect particularly.

I do agree that its important to have a range of opinions though. With topics like this its so easy to get into polarised positions. What I like to do is look at my own positions and then find a way of arguing a different one that still fits within my own value system. It really helps me to stop seeing things in black and white.


I might come back later and see if I can post the 'other side'.

kea,

<>

Oh really? Why? How is this fine?

az

I have left this thread too long.

Ben, Azahar, et al. I am Once again I misspoke myself, or more properly didn't think my words through. I meant no insult to anyone, I merely meant to point out that Nerd42 show all the signs of the classic disease we all have to go through, teenagerhood. The unwavering belief without logical proof, the strength of conviction without need for confirmation, the absolute knowledge that those older are stuck in their own beliefs. I merely wanted to be a voice of reason, but I *see* now that I only aggravated each side of the discussion.

I will watch from a short distance once again.

Oh, cl, I wasn't agravated, just trying to articulate again. In fact, apart from our own pet Nerd42 and our own untamable Hoovooloo this coversation has been to h2g2's usual high standards of respect and netiquette. Come back, and join us, do.

I think I have mentioned to you before that I know that I have *really* achieved tolerance when I no longer find the certainties of teenagerdom trying.

az - I assumed that kea was saying that Nerd42, and indeed anyone, is entitled to hold an anti-abortion stance, in the same way that they are entitled to think that the world is flat, or the moon is made of green cheese. The unfortunate thing of course is that unlike flat earthers and green cheesers, anti-abortionists can be a tad dangerous.

B

hi Ben,

Of course it's fine to have an anti-abortion stance regarding one's own body, but that's it.

az

*treading very carefully here*

I think it is also ok for doctors to have an anti-abortion stance

BUT

not GPs and not Ob/Gynies for obvious reasons.

B

yeah, I was meaning its fine to have an anti-abortion stance in the context of discussions here on h2g2. However when the statement was repeated to me I had a few second thoughts. Like how I know there are people that are anti-abortion but not in the way of Nerd. They think abortion is wrong, but they also have compassion for real people in real situations.

But then I think thats all very well until they have some power in the situation (like voting, or they're in govt or making health policy). And then their views actually affect other people's lives.


Ditto with doctors. I agree with you B about GPs and O and Gs - I've seen what happens to women that live in areas where the certifying doctors (who give permission for the woman to have an abortion) are anti-abortion. Its such bullshit.

hi Ben and Kea,

So then, what is a 'real' situation for a woman wanting an abortion? I know many women who have had abortions because they got pregnant at really bad times in their lives where they felt incapable of having and raising a child. No threat to health. And although I don't feel I could ever do that personally, I totally respect a woman's right to choose to have an abortion if she feels she needs one. There will always be people who abuse the system, those very few who use abortion as a too-late form of birth control and end up having three or four abortions. But I think these people are quite the minority.

This just *has* to be a personal decision. And I think it is very fotunate that the laws have been changed so women seeking an abortion can have it done with proper medical assistance.

I also think that the D&X procedure should be (as it is now) only used in quite extreme situations. To me it sounds like a procedure that is there to help women survive. It isn't about just killing off unwanted babies, because who would want to undergo such a thing unless it was totally necessary?

I also was told by a doctor that up to a third of pregnancies end up 'aborting' naturally. Often before a woman even knows she is pregnant. And so sometimes a woman does not even know she has 'aborted' - she just ends up with a very difficult period one month.

An aside - many of the extreme right-wing anti-abortionist types ended up supporting the latest war. And they still call themselves pro-life? Saw a photo on the front page of the newspaper the other day of a small child - maybe three years old - who had been the victim of a cluster bomb. Her face was totally destroyed and she was clinging onto life.

The mind reels.

az

>Being outnumbered is irrelevant. This is not a physical fight. If you make sense, no amount of being outnumbered will reduce the value of your logic.

Being outnumbered can make it very difficult to keep up with the backlog. It can leave you with too many questions to respond to. That's why I occasionally step into defend religious zealots, but abortion conversations are usually too boring to bother with.

He might be outnumbered because researchers on the site tend to be liberals and conservatives are sometimes pushed to the side, ganged up on and harassed.

Whoah, I'm in the last weeks of school, and then there'll be summer, and I might not get online at all till fall, and if I do, I'll first update my h2g2 RPG. I can't pay much attention to this thread. You all might want to go elsewhere.

"I can't pay much attention to this thread. "

So why start it?

Present a "challenge", then state outright that you have no intention of bothering to find out if someone met it? What kind of behaviour is that? Why should anyone take any notice of anything else you say, if this is how you act on subjects this emotive and important?

If you have an opinion, you're at liberty to express it. But if you invite the opinions, or question the experience or expertise of others - as you did with your "challenge" - then it is only good manners to pay attention to the answers.

And yes, Two Bit, the opinion here does seem very one-sidedly liberal. But Nerd42 has consistently used "outnumbered" and "limited time online" as excuses not to bother engaging with a debate he knows he's lost.

Asking a question like this, in these terms, and then coming out and stating that you've no intention of reading the answers is pretty close to the definition of trolling...

H.

...thought this thread had died - how wrong can you be

To Hoovooloo and everyone else ... just so you don't feel like you are wasting your time. Even though I don't post often, I have been reading the thread and sorting out some of my own feelings and opinions. I suspect others read without posting also. So you are getting your points across, even if it's not to the originator. Thank you!