h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I only corrected your misundertsanding of my own statement.

I have no idea if the mothers physical health could be at stake, I am sure her mental state is. The mothers health is irrelevant to the need for any such procedure as far as I know because it's about the babies condition!

I am interested in the truths & untruths about it being examined.
It would be hard to come up with an undiscovered opinion about abortion.

I care about quality of life, not life at any cost, that goes for birth and death & the living done in between.

hi Ste,

The medical term I've come across is D&E Procedure (Dilation & Extraction). Apparently performed in 1% of all abortions.

Shall now go and try to find a link that doesn't look totally biased.

az

Ah yes, layman's terms, one of the bugbears of arguments such as this. It allows all manner of hyperbole and sentimentality to get in the way. Now go off and get your medical terminology right and then we can continue, or rather we can have hoovooloo come over and give your argument a bi-lateral oophorectomy.

Ok, if it's going to be D&E instead of PBA, and you want to be really correct about terms, then it's also Pro-Life, not Anti-Abortion, OK?

OK, I've got another fifteen minutes here, time to go read more backlog....

It's Pro Choice, not Pro Abortion. Your type, in my experience are some of the most anti-life people I've ever had the misfortune to meet. One of you almost killed me. A medical doctor who gave me misinformation about my physical condition when I was pregnant. Told me I just had to 'take it easy'. He LIED to me because he was anti-abortion. I could have died. ***hole!

The abortion was truly the worst day of my life. But it was MY choice to make, not some d**khead's with the morals of a flea.

Okay, still looking for links.

az

Hey, here's one I appearantly missed:

>
My feelings on Partial Birth Abortion is that it should always be legal, as should any other type of abortion at any other time. My argument is simple. Adult chimpanzees can pass tests of self-awareness and intelligence that a two-year old human can't.

As long as its legal to kill or do medical testing on a chimpanzee, there is no good argument for why it shouldn't be legal to do it on a much less inteligent and self-aware human fetus.
>

I don't care about animals anywhere near a hundrith of a percent as much as I care about humans. I've never yet seen the animal that was worth a single human life to save it. The only purpose for animals is to be used by humans. Most of us, whether we accept the Genesis record, or evolution, as our idea of how life was formed, if we apply logic, obtain the end result that Man is superior to the animals, as we have undeniably dominated the planet.

Hmm, so you're saying life begins at 21?

I saw one of those tests. The chimp was trained to confront that type of problem (previously had the problem repeated and repeated until it got it right every time), while the human only took it once.

"I'm not here to change your mind, or for you to change mine"

Then you are wasting your time and ours. This is not practice debating, unless you actually intending to listen to people when they point out logical fallacies in your arguments.

Also, you really do come across as a master (de)bater when you descend to name calling. "you pencil necks"?

How does bigotted moron sound? Brainless prat? Ignorant scum? If it's namecalling you want to engage in, bring it on, but please don't attempt to kid yourself or us that you're engaging in something high-minded or intellectual.

You're an idiot, and you give us more evidence of this fact with your every post here. Keep it up - you're funny!

H.

Listen Nerd42,

You are challenging us to show any documented medical case where what's recently become known as 'partial birth abortion' has saved a mother's life. Before we can do that we need the correct medical terminology so that we can search effectively. If you search using 'partial birth abortion' all you get is laughable right-wing fundamentalist propaganda.

Here's a hint for newcomer debatees, don't start calling the people who you are trying to interact with 'pencil necks' (whatever that means, or anything else.



Azahar,

Thanks for the procedure name. I'll get looking too.

Ste

Everyone, look at azahar's post, and thereafter cease to call ME a rude extremist.

Now, about the terms, let's see, yeah, like I've said all along, it's Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life, most of the time. There are certain organizations to which the terms Anti-Abortion, Anti-Choice, Pro-Abortion, or Pro-Death could be applied by some people though. I say Planned Parenthood is a Pro-Abortion organization, and you could probably name several on my side (besides the National Right to Life Council, which is what pretty much defines the term Pro-Life, and they're not just about stopping abortions) that could take the Anti-Abortion or Anti-Choice label as well.

Everyone, look at azahar's post, and thereafter cease to call ME a rude extremist.

Now, about the terms, let's see, yeah, like I've said all along, it's Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life, most of the time. There are certain organizations to which the terms Anti-Abortion, Anti-Choice, Pro-Abortion, or Pro-Death could be applied by some people though. I say Planned Parenthood is a Pro-Abortion organization, and you could probably name several on my side (besides the National Right to Life Council, which is what pretty much defines the term Pro-Life, and they're not just about stopping abortions) that could take the Anti-Abortion or Anti-Choice label as well.

Hey, yeah, I know, the Life-Chain (which I support) could be called Anti-Abortion.

I'd say that after reading azahar's post she knows what she's talking about. Rather than, say, starting a thread about something you have demonstrated you know nothing about, and then refusing to not only change your mind, but refusing to even read the backlog.


'Intact dilation and extraction'
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction

'If a fetus develops hydrocephalus, the head may expand to a size of up to 250% of the radius of an adult skull, making it impossible for it to pass through the birth canal. In such a case, the physician may elect to perform a D & X procedure by draining off the fluid from the brain area, collapsing the fetal skull and withdrawing the dead fetus. Allowing a woman to continue in labor with a severely hydrocephalic fetus is not an option; attempted birth would kill her. '

Note the final sentence.


I'm looking for more. The full term, it seems, is "Intact Dilation and Extraction".

Ste

Nerd,

Gosh, I don't see how looking at my post will make anyone want to stop calling you a rude extremist.

Guys,

Can't do the link thing - my extremely old computer keeps crashing on me. Sorry. But if you go onto Google, type in either P&X Procedure or Martin Haskell (the doctor who invented this procedure) there's lots of information.

az

Pro life.

http://www.christiangallery.com/hill3.html

H.

Testimonies to a Senate Judiciary Committee regarding PBA/ID&E:
http://www.burgy.50megs.com/six.htm

Some background to Intact Dilation and Extraction:
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2002/07/24/late_term/index1.html

Here's a Google search with the criteria as "Intact Dilation and Extraction": http://www.google.com/search?num=25&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&q=%22Intact+Dilation+and+Extraction%22&btnG=Google+Search

Ste

Nerd42:

"if we apply logic, obtain the end result that Man is superior to the animals"

That is by no means a logical conclusion, unless you choose extremely anthropocentric criteria.

Judge humans on these criteria:

- which animal is responsible for the most extinctions of other species?
- which animal hunts and kills its own kind based not on need, but on belief?
- which animal has applied its resources to creating new and better ways to kill as many members of its own species as possible?
- which animal has detrimentally affected the planetary environment to the point where there has been a measurable change in the climate?

"as we have undeniably dominated the planet."

I deny that. You're being ignorantly anthropocentric and moronically unimaginative - quelle surprise.

What does "dominating" the planet MEAN? Population? There are more nematode worms than there are people. Variety of environment? Crabs live in more diverse environments than humans.

The only thing undeniable that we've done to this planet that other species have not is DAMAGED it. Proud of that, are you?

"Hmm, so you're saying life begins at 21?"

I won't get into the logical fallacy that there can be a "beginning" to something like a life. In a debate like this you have to draw a line, even if you know that it's meaningless to do so. So here's mine:

I'd say life begins when the developing brain starts to make enough neural connections that real brain activity could, but not necessarily does - start.

Life begins when the *potential* for thought begins. Which in your case is in about ten years time, with luck and a following wind...

H.

I'm posting this link on behalf on anzahar, who is having tilde(~)-related troubles with her computer!

'D&X victory'
http://www.afn.org/~iguana/archives/1996_10/19961003.html

Ste

azahar, even *ahem*

re: Hoo's pro-life link.

Shudder!

az