h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

thanks Ste!

I can only do this - ñ - can't get the little thingy on its own.

az

Nerd,

You seem to shoot yourself in the foot everytime you open your mouth (oops, mixing my metaphors there). Let me explain just what sort of 'rude extremist' I am.

As I mentioned, got pregnant with a rather unhealthy womb, though I didn't know then just how bad thing had got. Was pregnant for a few weeks and during this time totally fell in love with that little life growing inside of me. Then spoke to this doctor-from-h*ll who had a photo of the Pope on his wall and who may have called himself pro-life but he obviously had no qualms about putting my own life in serious danger by outright lying to me about my condition.

It was only when I called my doctor in Canada and explained the situation that I got the straight goods. He actually screamed at me over the phone - 'Are you totally nuts? Do you want to die bleeding like a stuck pig on the operating table and for nothing as this child will have very little hope of surviving anyhow - I beg of you! - DO NOT go through with this!!!'

So I had an abortion. The usual D&E. It was horrible. I cried my heart out throughout the whole procedure - they had to bring in three doctors. One to do the procedure, one to hold me down, and another to talk to me and massage my hands open, which were clenched so tight I was cutting my palms open with my fingernails. I actually felt sorry for the doctor trying to just do his job as I wasn't making things easy for him. The third doctor who was trying to calm me down, bless him, was a Jamaican and at one point he started singing very softly to me - No Woman No Cry.

You see - I didn't *want* to have this abortion. But it was a question of life or death. And it was the most terrible decision I'd ever had to make in my whole life. It totally broke my heart and I know that I'm still not 'over it' and probably never will be.

But you know what? It was MY decision to make. Nobody else's. Years earlier when I lived in Toronto there was an abortion clinic run by Henry Morgantaler, a very famous Canadian doctor who believed in offering women a healthy and safe abortion option and who also spent time in prison when he continued to perform safe abortions (this was before the laws were changed). I used to see all these supposed 'pro-life' people marching around in front of the Morgentaler clinic and thrusting photos of dead foetuses in the faces of women going into the clinic. At the time this used to make me so angry, I just thought - Who the h*ll do these people think they are? Trying to make these poor women suffer more than they already were. At the time I used to scoff at these losers and call them the 'Get a Life' people - they totally creeped me out.

Then after my own terrible experience I found I felt even more strongly about a woman's right to choose. Because the only time I have ever seen true evil in my life was the day that medical doctor looked me straight in the eye and said I had nothing to worry about. He had no right to do this! To play with MY life because he believed his God was right. F**k him. I will hate him forever.

If that makes me a 'rude extremist' in your warped mind, Nerd, well in the famous words of Steve Martin - excuuuuuuuse meeeeeee! You and your ilk think you are God on the throne. Instead you are just a bunch of very pathetic people who hurl abuse at women who are having to make a very difficult choice. Shame on you.

Sorry for the rant, guys. It's just that this is a very personal issue with me. Okay, I had to give the doctors the okay to end this special little life inside of me, and one I had actually fallen in love with. I do in fact think that all life is sacred - which is what made my decision so f**king hard. But to think that the likes of Nerd would prefer to see a living person dead rather than kill a human possibility - no way no day.

All worn out now. Need a

az

H.

oh, thanks honey!

I needed that.

az

Though not as acute as your suffering, someone I care about had enormous trouble with a gynecologist who had his own ideas about what was best for his patients.
Despite previous years of gradually increasing suffereing, he reckoned that a week or more of debilitating pain every month was a much better option for her than an operation which would mean that a woman who had never wanted children would have that undesired option removed for good.
Mind you, it seems he wasn't even sure of the difference between endometriosis and endometriitis, and the only surgery he was eventually prepared to contemplate probably wouldn't have solved her problem anyway.

Fortunately she had an understanding GP who arranged for her to see someone competent and she managed to get the problem sorted successfully, but having someone so blinkered practising medicine at all, let alone in a senior position in such a sensitive area of medicine really distressed me.

Azahar,

Thank you for sharing your story. It's helped me solidify my feelings a little more. I'm sorry.

What a horrid experience for you azahar


Often a Dr. will go with their own beliefs, which can make it risky for the patient,especially when the patient is in a pinch and away from home.

In matters of birth & death it is best to have a Dr. who believes or is aware of and repects your definition of quality of life. The Dr. should go by the patients right to legally choose reguardless of their own beliefs. This is a wish for the most part, (hopefully in writting) one you cannot count on in the US.

Pro-life
Pro-Choice
Ant-Abortionists

Truely PC would allow all three.

Anti-abortionist
There are NOT PRO ABORTIONIST there are anti-abortionist. Anyone who says no where,for any reason IS anti-abortion. Whats wrong with that Nerd? Anti-Abortionist may or may not be pro-life. Most I have known, are not "pro-life".

Pro-life-
Involves no abortion (without medical neccesity)
No mercy deaths,
no death sentances

Pro-Choice
Always used for circumstances. Allows for individual choices during individual crisis. Recognizes shades of grey.

azahar, I'm totally stuck for words...

I probably (predictably) didn't phrase what I wrote above terribly well.
What I was trying to say was that even when I cared deeply, I still couldn't understand how the person I cared for really felt.
How intense things were (and are) for you, I can't really begin to imagine.

*Recognizes shades of grey.*

Sorry, but no one I have found in the b'Log qualifies. Opinions are rampant here and no one seems to be all that tolerant. Some people seem to accept other opinions, granted, but everyone seems to have an agenda.

Sorry cl zoomer, noone in the backlog qualifies for what?

Ste

I merely want to point out that whatever centralist point every(any)one wants to portray, preconceived opinions seem to be prevalent.

If my conception is flawed, so be it, but that is my perception.

'If my conception is flawed...'
Was that a deliberate pun? . Sorry.

*Ahem*

The centralist point seems to be let each individual decide their own morality. That allows for all grey areas doesn't it?

Ste

Ste,

re: pun, intentional or otherwise

(why does the laughing smiley look like a football?)

az

Nerd 42

Did I really see you say this in Post 307: "The only purpose for animals is to be used by humans"?

The reason I ask you is that I want to be very sure that IS your opinion before I comment on it. The other reason I am not commenting now is that I am left absolutely speechless by it.



cl zoomer

You say "Opinions are rampant here and no one seems to be all that tolerant. Some people seem to accept other opinions, granted, but everyone seems to have an agenda."

I am not sure where I sit with regards an agenda. I personally consider that there is an arguable case that abortions are imoral except on medical grounds such as those that azahar relates, and such as those that I described earlier in the thread where my friend would have had a baby with no brain and no covering to its spine. However, I consider the case that abortions are imoral to be unproven and a matter of personal opinion not societal absolutes.

I find Carl Sagan's argument (quoted at some length earlier in the thread) compelling that one cannot consider the foetus (or is it an embryo at that stage?) to have the same rights as a human until its brain is capable of human-style neurological activity.

Since there have always been abortions and there always will be abortions the pragmatist in me insists that it is better that they be legal and safe.

Finally, I agree with az that it is the woman's right to choose what happens to her body within the limits of what is legal, presupposing a legal structure where the rights of the older fetus, (one that is capable of human-style neurological activity), are protected AS WELL AS the rights of the mother earlier in the pregnancy.

So I come down as pro-choice with personal qualms about abortion. However I am reasonably certain that were I to miss my next period and take a positive pregnancy test I would, (for various reasons I am not willing to discuss here) be looking up clinics in the yellow pages within about 10 minutes. So - pro choice, with personal qualms, and an unpleasantly pragmatic attitude.

The clincher to me is that up until the stage where the foetus is capable of human-style neurological activity it is a POTENTIAL human being, and not ACTUALLY a human being.



azahar

Thank you for sharing your story, it will remain with me for a long time, and my heart goes out to you for being put through such a painful experience with so much additional cruelty.



Finally - Nerd 42

Once more - do you REALLY think that "The only purpose for animals is to be used by humans"?

Interested minds want to know.



Ben

azahar

Okay, Nerd42 (living up to your name too, it seems)

In post 254 & 255 I summarised the information collected by myself and many of the other contributors to the thread regarding the medical requirement for what you call PBA, but seems technically to be called Dilation and Extraction or possibly Intact Dilation and Extraction (thanks Ste et al).

You have rejected this on the grounds that there are no documented examples which justify the use of this procedure. What a surprise.

Are you demanding that a researcher who may have been unfortunate to have undergone this procedure relate her ordeal for your entertainment, only to have you scorn them?

Are you demanding that a medical professional should break their professional obligations to preserve confidentiality and publish for your entertainment the notes from a series of their patients, only to have you label them as something lower than scum and target them for physical assault?

I am not a medical professional but I can read and reason. Here is an attempt to summarise some of the conditions that might require use of this least desireable procedure.

If you are not Nerd42, you may prefer to skip most of the rest of this post.



"The foetus is already dead"

If the foetus has died in utero and has developed past the point where another more preferable termination procedure cannot be used, then it will be necessary for the mother to give birth. However the reason for the death of the foetus and/or the orientation of the foetus may prevent a normal delivery. In this circumstance a C-section is an option, however the physical recovery period is a minimum of 6 weeks. Which ever procedure is used there will be no "live" birth.

"The foetus will not survive ANY kind of delivery"

If the foetus is abnormal as noted previously by another researcher, where the head has expanded to the point where it will not pass through the pelvis, this procedure may be used to terminate the pregnancy. Prolonging the pregnancy is inadvisable for the health of the mother may be placed at risk. Again a C-section could be used, but since the foetus cannot be born "alive" and would not survive outside of the womb because it is extremely premature, why subject the mother to major surgery to no reasonable purpose?

"The mother will not survive ANY kind of delivery"

The assumption YOU make Nerd42, is that all mothers are 100% healthy, 100% of the time. What about those times where a woman is pregnant and then finds that she has other problems, like cancer?

Different cancers present different problems and require different treatments, however it is easy to imagine a situation where a woman is found to be pregnant, which is too far advanced for the other more medically preferable termination procedures to be applied, who has cancer requiring immediate treatment and yet will not live long enough for the foetus to survive even if born prematurely.

"The mother will be disabled by any kind of delivery"

Carrying on from the first point regarding death in utero, it may be that a normal still birth delivery cannot be practically carried out as the foetus is breech and cannot be turned. Breech deliveries are not good at the best of times, but the trauma for the mother at this the worst of times would be severe.





This barely scratches my thoughts on how this procedure might be applied in practice, but I can see that there is a need for its availability, as a LAST resort, which is how we all understand it is applied.

IMO the most striking thing about this debate, Nerd42, is your own lack of appreciation of reality.

The US legislation that has sparked your awareness of this issue is useless and almost certainly will not result in the saving of a single unborn foetus. What it probably will do is successfully lead to some pregnancies ending under simply horrific conditions which seriously endanger mothers lives.

Go away and grow up.

Madent

Hi everyone

Wow, thank you all so much for all the and kind words. To be honest, after I clicked the post message button last night I went into total CRINGE mode thinking - oh no! what have I done!

Then I couldn't get to sleep for hours afterwards worrying that I'd just made a total fool of myself. HooToo therapy, eh?

It does feel lovely to feel surrounded and supported by so many friends, and especially people that I like and respect so much. Again - thanks.

az

It was very brave of you to post something as personal as that publically on the internet. I don't think anyone who read it will feel the same about this issue again. Thank you for sharing.

Say what your soul sings.