h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"However, I think it's quite worthwhile to note that in cases where we saved
territory from communist rule (S. Korea, S. Vietnam), the people there are much happier and prosperous than their cousins under communist
rule."

Uh, did I miss something? Didn't Saigon fall to the Viet Cong a while ago?

>I'd be curious to hear the opinions of people in Ho Chi Minh city, or from the Korean survivors of the massacre at No Gun Ri.

Would you rather live under communist oppression or in a first world nation? We failed in Vietnam and succeeded in defending Korea. Even though there may have been probelms or massacres, it doesn't mean that you don't try to do the right thing now.

Dunno... in communism... aren't we all viewed as equals!???

::plays with fire::

::doesn't know this fire very well at all::

::extinguishes fire before getting into trouble::

Yep... Dunno... just dunno... it's a good question, but I can't answer it honestly because I don't live in a communist regime.

I wonder if the people really were oppressed all that much in the communist regimes.

Well, we can't truly rely on history books, because they are slanted, selective, and well... written mostly by white men!!!

::notices there's a new fire to take care of::

Pardon me...

::fills a bucket with water, just to have it handy::

"Would you rather live under communist oppression..."

No. I doubt that anyone wants to be oppressed, but to use that phrase 'communist oppression' harks back to the astonishing paranoia of the 50s and 60s. Far too many people have been oppressed under communist systems, many haven't. Like every form of government there are those who want it and those who don't. The ideals of communism are very noble ones - equality, fairness, to each according to his needs from each according to his means, but in order for it to work, some basic human urges have to suppressed - greed, selfishness, jealousy, avarice. Which is why true communism is probably impossible. So, would I like to live under communism that worked? Yes.

"...or in a first world nation?"

Which one? There are quite a few I'd hate to live in. I've lived in two first world nations for my entire life, and whilst the material benefits have been great, I look around me and see a poverty of spirit and a mean, heartless society that is quite, quite saddening and at times utterly obscene. Most first world nations have nothing to be proud of when it comes to looking after the most vulnerable of their citizens. The American healthcare system is possibly the most disgusting example of that. The National Health Service in the UK has shown that socialised medicine doesn't always work as it might, but at least when I lived there, I had no worries about getting sick or having any kind of accident. My wife and I currently have no medical insurance - if anything happens to us, we're screwed.

If we're going to talk about oppression, let's talk about the right wing as well as the left. Right wing systems are by no less guilty than communism in that respect. Let's have some balance here.

Please don't use emotionally charged phrases like 'communist oppression' in a discussion like this. If you want to know people's views, it's sufficient to say "would you like to live in a communist society?"

Just bouncing off your last point, Gosho... I think that emotionally charged phrases are so ingrained in the U.S. vocabularly that most use it without a second thought. It's automatic.

"It has not yet been determined if this is a terrorist-related event", I remember the news telling me when a car bomb (or some such) went off outside a Russian McDonald's. I wanted to throw a brick at the screen. It's clear that "terrorist" now means "Al Queda" to too many people. Idiots.

Words are simply some things we don't think too often about. But I agree they do carry great power.

ARRHGGHHHH!!!!!!

Communism has NEVER worked. It NEVER will. Everywhere communism has sprouted up it has been accompanied by economic stagnation, poverty, and absolutist regimes.

You can't control the economy with 'wealth redistribution' in mind and not put in place a government which prevent freedom.

A common criticism of capitalism is that there are poor people. Well in communism, EVERYBODY is poor. That's worse.

Communism has been proven to suck eggs every time it's been tried. Capitalism has been proven time and time again to result in free societies which build wealth. And because they build wealth, the poor people are better off than the ones in communist countries because it's NOT a zero-sum game.

Look at history before you say anything good about Communism, please. Enough people have suffered because idealistic youth with no knowledge of human nature have proposed communist ideas and as a result there are countries where there is nothing to eat.

I'm sorry if I sound angry, but I AM angry. Anyone who thinks communism can work is not looking at the facts. Read history. Learn about economics (not from a liberal college professor). Look at the countries which tried Marxism and see how many people starved to death.

Some people who admit that communism has never worked may still with justification argue that Capitalism hasn't ever worked either. Certainly the bare theory of capitalism (personal greed will lead to general benefit) reads a little like a deal with the devil, whereas the theory of communism (all for one and one for all) seems much more comforting.

"Anyone who thinks communism can work is not looking at the facts."

I guess you didn't read everything I said

Gosho-

My tirade was not directed at your post. The the "reply-to" thingy.

Now I've read your post.

Socialized systems work in the short-term. But take Sweden as an example, and you find incredible government debt. They will default on the national debt at some point, and it will plunge the country into a depression. That's what happens.

Is capitalism perfect? No. It's just far better than any of the alternatives.

Better that some suffer hardship than the entire nation. Find a better way to do more for the majority than capitalism. It can't be done. Communism is a far worse option. I'd rather that 5% of us suffer hardship than 95%.

Sorry, I'm too tired to read all the backlog at the moment, but 2 things:

1) Two Bit Trigger, if you talk of "we", will you count me out, please?

2) *hugs Gosho for No. 67* And I am no communist... I wear a black star since more than 20 years now and I mean it...

I will read everything else later on and get back.

Sorry

Excuse me, don´t capitalist countries suffer from depression?
I live in the country you are refering to, Sweden, with a socialized welfare system - and yeah, it isn´t always a piece of cake to make it work perfectly. But it is worth the hard work. I pay my taxes with pride and joy, because I feel that it is an important tool for building a democratic society.

Thank you for post 67, Gosho.

didn't Reagan make the U. S. (a capitalist country) the number one debtor nation in the world? Who says socialism necessarily leads to national debt and default? That seems like ideology rather than real world examples.

Just pointing something out about communism working... Plato, in the Republic, states *himself* that communism can never work perfectly because of human nature.

Random thought I had last night after finishing my philosophy reading (Thoreau's Civil Disobediance) which I put to my roommate - in order to have an "ideal" society, would you not have go first totally communistic and then drop the bottom out and have a peaceful anarchy? I'm betting I'm totally wrong - and this is severely off topic - but I'm curious what others think.

Butcher-

*Socialized systems work in the short-term*

Lots of Social Democrasies work well and have for a very long time. Socialised medicine is alive and well in lots of countries. Government welfare and pension plans are a fact of life in more places than the US, and most of those places have better systems because the capitalist competition is not fighting to dismantle them. Even Capitalism itself is a different kettle of fish in the US. It isn't really supply and demand anymore or even open market. I don't think we are talking Capitalism vs Communism here, just the US way verses all the many other ways.

Sure capitalistic countries suffer from depressions, too. But it's really the economic baggage of the New Deal that has caused the majority of the economic problems in this country. And economic growth, the long-term effect of Reagan's tax cuts, was realized in the 90s when Clinton was in office and we had a budget surplus.

The kind of crippling debt Sweden faces is a problem in the US because of the left/liberal socialization that's taken place since FDR. We're not a purely capitalistic society. And that's to blame for most of the economic problems.

Unemployment in the US is far below that of our more socialized friends in Europe. The less we try to "fix" that with artificial government programs designed to "ease" poverty, the more attractive we make unemployment, and the more we tax the workers and business that drive the economy.

By alleviating the problems associated with poverty, we created a huge underclass. This is what socialism does.

By eliminating government programs designed to "help" the poor (or the old), we encourage poverty (or retirement at the government's expense). The number of people who needed welfare (or social security)when the program started was very low. It's higher now. Did we help these people? NO!

Giving in to a child's demands creates a spoiled child. Giving in to economic need creates an economic underclass. It's hard to stand back and let a few people suffer, but in the long run you have far fewer poor people.

Even worse is social security. What a crock! Take my money now, give it to old people who have been taking out more than they were putting in. We can't afford it!!! Personal investment accounts. Require it.

Social Security Reform NOW!