h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

The socialist systems are going deeper and deeper into debt. Someone must pay.

Who's going to bail out Sweden when they default on their national debt in 20 years?

I'll tell you who. The USA.

What government current or past would you think had the best system with non-social programs?

btw.. asked for what society he woult prefer even the Dalai Lama brought anarchy into discussion some years ago...

btw- Canada has a long history of social democrasy. We have socialised medicine, extensive social programs that this year will include universal daycare, automatic pension social plans that are optional at the request of the worker, and many others. Not only has our national debt been reduced over the last four years but we have a consistantly balanced budget year after year with surpluses over the last decade. Provincially the majority are working toward their own balanced budgets and away from deficit financing.

Recently when the US slapped outrageous duties on softwood lumber coming from Canada, we began simultaneously negotiating and diversifying- but the major effect was to drive the price of home building up in the US and down in Canada.

The US has never *bailed us out* and I don't expect it ever will.

*read a bit backlog* "To bail out anybody"

Then ask who is paying much less than most other countries, and doing less about everything.. Hello US...

If you like Canada's system, fine. I understand that taxes there are pretty bad. Other than that I have little to say, because to be honest, I admit that I haven't read much about Canada's economy. I've concentrated on the US, communist countries, and Europe.

What is the unemployment rate in Canada? Taxes? How hard is it to be self-employed?

I'm a libertarian. We don't like anarchy, but believe the government is there for national defense, to protect property rights, and to enforce laws that prevent fraud. Some big-government folks think that's anarchy.

Well Butcher, I am no expert on economics at all, and don´t have a crystal ball in which I can see the future.
The first socialdemocratic government started to build our welfare system in the 1930´s. Back then this country was one of the poorest countries in Europe. We clearly have very different ideals and ideas, but as I said before - I pay my taxes with pride and joy, to contribute to make democracy in it´s true meaning possible. Considering my workingclass background I know I have a lot to thank this system for.

"I understand that taxes there are pretty bad"

Bad? If by that you mean they're higher than what you pay, or what you'd like to pay, well - you get what you pay for. People always want to pay less tax and politicians are always ready to run on that ticket because it's guaranteed to get them votes, but when the budget reaches crisis point as it is in many US states right now including the one where I live (Texas) because there's not enough income, it's always the most needy and vulnerable who are hardest hit. And more importantly, children's education is affected because school budgets can no longer afford anything but the basics. The school band, school trips, art classes, all the things which enrich an education over and above the three Rs, all gone.

If you find yourself strapped for cash, do you tell your mother that you can't afford to look after her any more and put her out on the streets? Do you tell your handicapped son that you can't afford his care any more so he's going to have to leave too? Do you tell your wife who just fell and broke her leg that she's going to have to make do and hope it gets better on its own? That's what budget cuts mean in harsh, personal terms real people - not statistics, and they happen because others are too selfish to pay a fair share of their income to do the right thing and help those who can't help themselves.

We had an ice storm in Texas earlier this week. There wasn't enough money to to pay for gritters to go out there and put sand on the roads. There wasn't even enough money for sand! And do you think the local news station showed anyone saying "I wish they'd put up the taxes so we could afford to get the roads sanded"? Of course not. The only vox pops we saw were people griping that "Somebody should have done something."

In situations like this I'm always reminded of a Duckman cartoon. He has to go to Ajax's school to talk to the Principal and finds himself in a run down, derelict, filthy building. "How did it ever come to this?" he wonders, as a little thought bubble appears above his head with a shot of Duckman and several others at a protest, all with banners and all shouting "No new taxes!". The bubble disappears with a *pop* and Duckman shakes his head and mumbles "I don't know".

I don't mind paying taxes for what's needed. I do mind paying taxes if that money is not used properly, like the stories we sometimes hear about (for instance) the hammer which cost $250. I know that there will always be some wastage of my tax money, but as long as that is kept to a minimum I can live with it, and I know that if I want to live in a decent, compassionate, spiritually rich society, I'm going to have to pay for it, and I know that it'll reap enormous dividends in the long run.

Butcher:

You admit that the U. S. is not a pure Capitalist system and suggest that the "New Deal" is to blame for most of the present economic problems there. It has been suggested to me by a large number of people of different political stripes that there never has been a pure Marxist or communist system on the planet. So, in fact, it seems that what we are discussing here are contrary to fact conditionals: "if a pure capitalist/communist system existed it would/wouldn't work". Well, contrary to fact conditionals are always true, but they are meaningless in the real world where we talk about facts.
Reagan pretended to return the country to capitalist ideals and took it from being the number one creditor to the number one debtor nation in just eight years. The Soviet system managed to hang on in the world despite the stupid waste of the arms race and now many former Soviet citizens look back on "communism" as the good old days. I've seen the homeless on the streets during the elder Bush's days as President, and now, since Canada's first American prime minister Brian Mulroney foisted Free Trade on our country, we've got homeless on our streets. Capitalism is not a system that makes a better society.
I'm reminded of the words of Camile Paglia, who once suggested that if women ran the world we'd still be living in grass huts. My response to her was, well, at least we'd all have a hut. The same goes for Capitalism.

To find a way to get back to the original issue here, I have a question.
Patriotism seems to be important in USA. Why? What is it that you need to be patriotic about?
Over here patriotism is an expession used by neonazis and extreme rightwing organisations. So my conotations(Is that the expression?)of the word is not the most positive.

Gee, I'm going to continue:

Canadian taxes: I don't know, they're the only taxes I've ever paid. I seem to do okay.

Starting your own business: Well, I've been living off my same self-employment all my working life. It didn't seem too hard to start and we're doing fine. Of course, I've never started a private business in the U. S., so, I can't compare.

Unemployment: I'm not really sure but I think we might be quite comparable to the U.S. I know that in general our economy has been doing better than the American one for the last few years.

Your suggestion that you would rather have 95% live well than 100% live poorly (I know I didn't get the wording right) is, frankly, silly. We live in a world economy. Maybe 95% of the U. S. lives well, but that's on the back of the huge portion of the world that lives poorly while mining minerals for First World companies, making shoes and clothing for First World shoppers, growing coffee for First World Starbucks, and on and on and on and on. Have everybody in the U. S. buy only made in U.S.A from produced in U.S.A. materials and see how long 95% live well. Or better yet, pay U. S. wages to everybody in the Third World that produces for the U. S. market and see how long 95% of the U. S. population can shop in the malls.

But enough of that: I'm fed up.
And for Gosho: good for you!

Hi Two Bit,

"Would you rather live under communist oppression or in a first world nation? We failed in Vietnam and succeeded in defending Korea. Even though there may have been probelms or massacres, it doesn't mean that you don't try to do the right thing now."

In Vietnam and Korea, we were trying to make the world safe for capitalism, not promoting democracy or helping people. If we had won in Vietnam, would the people there have been more happy with a US-backed dictator like Diem? Hard to tell.

Invading Iraq would be the wrong thing now. It was also the wrong thing to do in Vietnam and Korea.

Butcher,

"Learn about economics (not from a liberal college professor)."

So who's your approved source for people to learn economics from? We should make sure that professors or authors show us their certification as being conservatives before listening to anything they say about economics?

"Look at the countries which tried Marxism and see how many people starved to death."

Of course, the embargoes or wars they had to fight against capitalist nations had no impact on people's standard of living. It's just a natural progression for any country that tries Marxism. That's like tying somebody's hands behind his back and holding him underwater while saying, "What's the matter, can't you swim?"

OOO... this is like watching Crossfire!!!

RE: U.S. Patriotism. It's a strange thing to define, perhaps.... but we use it (by and large) in a positive sense.

Kids recite the Pledge of Alligence in a vast percentage (though not all) of U.S. schools. You'll find the U.S. flag EVERYWHERE. Not literally. But by comparison to the scant amount of foreign ports I've had the honor of being to, yes. Y E S .

Post Offices(every town, on average, has one), Public Libraries, all government buildings and most every school flies an American flag outside.

We have a national holiday on which we celebrate our independence. I can't speak of how this holiday compares to similar ones in other countries, but it's a big fat deal here. We also have President's Day, Memorial Day, Veteran's Day, Washington's Birthday, Lincoln's Birthday, etc... "Praise the government!" Well, that was the original intent.

All those holidays are just an ocassion for a big clearance sale and advertising gimmics for some U.S. citizens...

But patriotism is a big thing here. We have a ton of patriotic songs: God Bless the U.S.A., I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy, Stars and Stripes Forever, America! America!, Over There, God Bless America, Marine's Hymn, military songs... Yes, you can buy a whole book... or a double cd, if you like!!!

Love of one's country is a big thing. Big. The nation is gorgeous. The streets were never paved in gold, though. I feel we have a GREAT DEAL to be proud of.

Patriots abound. Some far more subtle than others. Something like only 18 or 20% of U.S. citizens own passports. Narrow minded!?? Yes... a bit... but consider the circumstances: we don't have to travel beyond our borders when we have such variety in the States... and it's a huge country. And again, a lot think we're the BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!! And it's always been "a long way" to Europe, the South Pacific, etc...

But that may be a bit off topic.

Maybe you are familar with Tommy Hilfiger. SP!?? Herrmm... what colors does his label feature!?? And Pepsi-Cola!?? Wal*Mart's stores adore red white and blue. I don't think this is coincidental.

Come on... we have the world by its s because we've gained so much power since Hiroshima. The U.S. dollar is the measure by which all other currencies have been judged, and the NY stock exchange pervades everything. Never mind the fact that the Dutch really helped NYC become what it is today... or that citizens from, really, e v e r y cultural background has contributed to our strength today!!! Nah.... America did it. Blah blah blah America. 40 acres and a mule for all.

Patriotism-- We can all pull together and make something of the nation. But then, I'm white.

Patriotism-- "Our forefathers brought forth on this continent a nation concieved in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal..." But then, I'm a college student (hence, I try to make myself into someone who is above equal, and by getting a higher education... I am advantaged all ready).

Patriotism. Patriotism. Patriotism. My dictionary says its found in someone who loves and defends his country.

Ok. So I love this country. But defend it!?? I'm a history student. Not a patriot. Now I've got to finish drinking this Pepsi before I go shop for some Tommy jeans at Wal*Mart...

You belong in the UK Draggers You remind me so much of the girlfriend from Detroit I used to live with in London. I'll tell you why in a mail - right now I'm trying to cook dinner, finish this second glass of , and keep up with hootoo

YAY!!! I do belong in the UK... I cried when I landed there, and in American Lit I kept reading about the ex-patriots like Ezra Pound... and kept thinking, "Herrrmm.... I'm gonna do that!!!"

But... Thanks for the compliment. I do like the UK better. I love the Underground and all the train trips....!!! I think even if there was no Ian, I would still be England-bound.

But then, a president like Bush kinda makes you WANT to leave... Or me. Yep.

"My country, right or wrong"?

"America First"?

"Buy American"?

Can anyone guess which one is true but not adhered to?

My country makes mistakes, it does things it shouldn't, it needs to be corrected every election or so. I am not a patriot. I love my country, but not what it does sometimes. It's principles are fluid and not set in stone, but based on humanitarianism. It's elected officials are often responsive to the populace that put it in power. Not in regard to everything, because then their power would be diluted. I do not fear a faceless power structure in government.

Can you say that?

Well, yeah, I can say all that, cl (or do you prefer zoomer?)

anhaga

Ah, ye fellow Canuck butt-head! I was talking to the nasty opponents of the 54-40 fight!

Gawd I do love this place, though.