h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

E G Mel said:

"It scares me that people are so worried about it. It says something about our society today that they would rather keep their anonymity than aid the authorities with cutting down on crime."

Yet *still*, noone has outlined just *how* crime would be cut with a national ID card system! Where are all these miraculous benefits? The only possible one I can see is to cut down on credit card fraud but you simultaneously introduce the far more serious threat of ID card fraud (i.e., identity theft).

(*Waits for accusations of some sort of psychological disorder from AncientBrit*)

Ste

Sorry AncientBrit

The police ARE racist. I can attest to that.
Also, having worked for various branches of the Civil Service, I have to agree that they are institutionally incompetent, racist, homophobic and sexist.

Credit card security could certainly be improved a little. A few years ago I woke up bleary-eyed, found a new credit card had arrived, and signed it very badly. I rang the company up to ask what to do, and they told me
'If it's too different from your normal signature, just sign the back of the card again.'
I did, and in the next 2 years of use, only *one* retailer asked me why my card had 2 different signatures on the back.

A friend of mine managed to swap credit cards with his boss when they were both paying for their share of a curry, and they ended up using each other's cards with their own entirely different signatures for a fortnight before one of them noticed the switch had been made.

I have to admit, I like the idea of a PIN for your card, speaking as someone whose card was stolen and used. By a guy. It's a hell of a lot safer than signatures, and all that happens to your card is that it's fitted with a chip to remember the pin, as I remember.

When you pay with a debit card here (California), you swipe it yourself and then enter in the PIN. It's a good idea and is far more effective than having to show photo ID as with credit cards.

What was the modded post then?

Ste

Dunno, nothing to do with me!

Yeah, it's a good idea, it cuts down on fraud too. There was talk a few months back of introducing it here in the UK, but nothing much has really been said since...

I've had no complaints either...
You wanted a heading for your thread (posting 181)
Steudy:-
Definition - Take pains to investigate or acquire knowledge with specific regard to any claim made that an ID card could be of some benefit.

Read posting 161

Even though you cannot read the iris data from a persons card because it is encrypted, doesn't mean you can't copy it.

But are you saying that your credit cards not only don't have pictures, but you also don't use PIN codes on them? That is amazing.

Ohh the trusting british, we just sign a piece of paper!

By the way people never chuck you credit card recipts in the bin, often they have the entire card number and expiry date on them, all you would need to use them on the internet, provided they know who's house they're robbing....

Happened to a friend of mine, they burn all their recipts now

Mel

Although that wouldn't be a problem if more online retailers started asking for the security number (the last three digits above the signature) which isn't encoded digitally and so can only be stolen through actual possession of the card.

But imagine all it really takes is for someone with a good memory seeing when you whip out your card. Then they can remember the numbers and shop online with the thing.

There are apparently also a lot of shops that don't destroy the pieces of paper with all your credit card details on them. They just throw them in the bin, so going through those should give you half a dozen credit card numbers to abuse. And again, if they are that careless about pieces of paper, would you trust an electronic database of theirs to be safe enough to house your ID details?

This is why I suggest that your card only holds your name address date of birth and if they want any more info they have to ask you for it, it would then store your ID number next to the useless info (such as how many toilet rolls you buy a week) which is worthless to anyone hacking the database other than having an average of how many toilet rolls are bought per person per week!

Mel

I've been sitting here reading the posts the last couple of days, and I find myself thinking how people think all new ways to shoot down any reasonable suggestion that is posted here, using more and more innovative ways of obtaining and using the info for their own benefit.

Xan, yes, a person with great memory could see the info on the credit cards, but honestly, the way the cashiers are working, how fast does this person have to remember the info? There's a 16-digit number on the front of the card, and then there's the security code at the back of the code. Are you telling me that someone would be able to memorize that by just seeing the card for the 20 seconds it takes from the time the card leaves the wallet, gets swiped, and is returned to the wallet again? Personally, I find that very hard to believe. Also, considering most cards don't show the card number with highly contrasting colour from the card itself. Hell, I even have difficulty reading the card number in my VISA card in certain lights and at certain angles, even if I'm holding it in front of me.

Just a thought.

I think Xan was talking about the security code only, but again it is difficult to see and it would rely on them getting that persons recipt etc, it is elaborate but I've heard true stories which are worse.

If anyone phones you up asking if you've lost your wallet and you have, don't give them any info, A friend recieved a call from a 'Bank security guard' saying he'd found a young girl trying to use her cards and could she verify that she had lost her wallet, and her PIN (doh! yes we all know this is stupid but in that sort of situation how many people question it?) etc etc, he said he had cancelled her cards and that they would need to be kept as evidence. Needless to say he was the thief and made off with £250 from her credit card.

She of course realised as soon as she put down the phone and phoned to check her cards had been cancelled. Though had her bank not held her in a phone queue for 20mins she might have been able to cancel it in time.

Mel

There have been some great ideas about how we can limit credit card fraud, which i applaud. but it still doesn't convince me for the need for having a complusory id card scheme. sure, credit card transactions should be made more secure and easier to use and verify, but at the apparent loss of our privacy? which is what is basically being proposed with a compulsary id card scheme.

Credit cards, passports, driving licences are all voluntary schemes. it still doesn't allay any of my fears over my loss of privacy; of a host of people (mostly non elected officials)knowing the intimate details of my life. Complusory id cards and the government's plans to charge road users (which will involve GPS tracking in every car to charge drivers to drive into cities or to use certain roads) seems to me to be a slow erosion of our rights to privacy.

why doesn't the government micro-chip us and have done with? complusory id cards are the thin end of the wedge as far as i am concerned.

i can hear the cries of paranoia - but i don't have to prove i'm living my life in accordance with society's norms; it has to be proved that i'm doing something wrong.

I think I would be prepared to give up the privicy you talk about if it meant that we have a better chance of finding out what might have happened to people like Millie Dowler.

But then what price can you put on someones life?

Mel

It has still to be explained what impact ID cards could have on crimes other than those (like fraud) where the routine checking of ID would take place.

I didn't hear about the GPS thing before. Bad idea. But if people are paranoid, it is amazing they are so keen on cell phones. They are tracking devices after all.

It's not likely that somebody will see the numbers on your card and use them. But I think it is amazing that what you use to buy stuff online for example, is something that is actually printed on the card. Not very high security.

Post 200 and still on topic

As you say, the one id card that you use everytime could be used by police to accurately track your last known movements, also if you were a wanted criminal, you would be unable to use your id card without the police knowing where you are.

I think the answer would be that the information would be available but that the police would have to show good reason to be able to use it.

Mel