h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I know all about that - my credit card (which I don't have any more) was stolen. By a guy.

Carrying an ID card is not compulsory in Sweden, and I can agree that it shouldn't have to be. I just don't see the point in arguing against them altogether as I feel some people are doing (not just in these forums, but elsewhere as well).
The credit card fraud ratio of France might be one of the highest, even if they have an ID card system, but just because they have the system, doesn't mean that it's air tight. And there are more ways than just buying soemthing in a store with a stolen credit card. You've got the sites that lists tonnes of credit card numbers that you can use to buy stuff online with, which also have to be taken into consideration.

I hadn't heard of the police beating someone up because of failure to show proof of ID when asked/demanded to do so, but that has to be put down to the behaviour of the police instead of the actual system with IDs. It could also have been due to the individual's behaviour when being asked/demanded to provide proof of identity that caused him to get beaten.

One other thing that a colleague of mine (he's Swedish as well) thought would be more invasive when it comes to people's privacy is the abundance of CCTV cameras in Great Britain. If people are afraid of the government/some obscure agency somewhere following every step they take becasue of an ID card, then what about the CCTV? Isn't that even worse?

To whom it may concern. (UK specifically others may be interested)
Some form of identity can be thrust upon you without your knowledge or consent
Another form of identity may be a legal requirement.
Other forms of identity can be carried / displayed in voluntary / vane manner.

I do wish that people joining the conversation would stick to the point I made in posting no. 1.
ie. A simple suggestion that anyone can be induced to carry some form of identification, bearing in mind that specific forms of identification would require specific forms of inducement.
Note: Compulsion should not be considered as acceptable inducement. Having said this however, given unequivocal evidence that all the worries that people associate with ID Cards were unfounded and that such an ID would do away with all other forms of identity and in turn would give me access to all files and information that is registered against the many forms of identity that are supposedly mine. I could possibly agree to that it should be compulsory to carry such a card.

Hi AncientBrit,

Your point in Post 1, as I remember it, was that by giving discounts (or benefits) with ID cards, people would choose to carry them voluntarily.

But what's going to fund those discounts and benefits? Answer: tax. So a) this would make introducing ID cards even more expensive than it would be usually, and b) it would be ineffective. It's essentially the same as penalising people who don't have one, which in turn is essentially the same as making them compulsory. I would certainly feel railroaded into carrying an ID card if I couldn't get the same benefits as everyone else without it. And if I feel railroaded into it, it's not optional.

Hope I've made you happy by responding to your original question Hope I haven't upset you too much by disagreeing with it

Gif

AncientBrit

It is post 124 and people are still talking about the pros and cons of ID cards. That is pretty on-topic for a conversation around here, where people tend to discuss things and respond to each other rather than always answering post 1...

k

Do you choose to have a loyalty card for each shop? What if those loyalty cards were part of your ID card, no extra cost to anyone....except for the fact that the shops would no longer have to produce their own cards, wouldn't always have to keep asking if the address is correct as info like that would be updated automatically when your card is swiped.

Mel

I find myself going back to my exapmle of the Swedish Drivers licence again, as that is what is used as proof of ID by most Swedes in everyday life (those who have one, that is).
The cost of that licence being produced is covered in the cost of the driving test, and is therefore sponsored solely by the person taking the test. As this is a voluntary thing, the person is also volunteering to take the additional cost (if any) of that card being made. The Swedish equivalent of the DVLA send out requests for new photos every now and then, though (every ten years or so) to try and keep people from using the driving licence with a picture of a 16-18-year old when they're 45 as they will most likely have changed a bit on the way.

Before I had the Driving licence, I had another form of ID card that the school got for us, but I can't remember if that had to be paid for by ourselves or how that was sorted. The financing of the cards is, however a real issue that must be taken into account.

I don't think that any benefits shold be made available to people carrying an ID card. This is partly because of what Gifor sad about it putting pressure on people to get the ID cards and hence not being optional, and also, what would be considered a valid ID card? As I'm a Swedish citizen, living and working in the UK I use my Swedish driving licence as a form of ID when required. Would that then be used as and as valid as a UK issued ID card?

Speaking of interlinking information, there's a back side to that as well. Apparently, there was a woman in Sweden that for some reason had been reported to Inland Revenue in Sweden as deceased (incorrectly). Within 24 hours, the bank had closed her account as she was dead, four local churches had contacted 'the estate' with enwuiries about how the funeral should be performed, the post office sent a letter to the estate to ask where her mail should be redirected to and the phone company tried to shut the phone off for her.
But I think I'd prefer that the information is interlinked between agencies and companies that need the information rather than having to update everything with a bundle of companies, contacting each one of them individually.

It's like Credit card cover, my handbag goes missing, I phone one number, they cancel all my cards and contact my card providers to get new ones. I pay for the privalege, I would probably pay for an ID card if it were really going to mean I only needed one wallet, all those loyalty cards really do get annoying sometimes!

Mel

well I dont drive so dont have a drivers licence, only have my credit cards on me if I know I intend to use them (stick to folding money otherwise), do not have a bus or train pass, only have my passport on me if I need to use it to cross an international border, dont have any store cards, have an unregistered pay as you go phone - in the last 20 years have never been stopped by the poice and asked to prove my identity (in the UK, France, Belgium, Holland & Germany)

So tell me what do I need or for that matter want a bloody ID card for?

I think it would be useful if, every time you make a credit card transaction, you have to produce a picture ID of some description. That would massively cut down on fraudulent use of the cards, but then I wouldn't mind my picture being on the card itself rather than have a separate piece of ID.

this wouldn't help with cloning cards but would cut down on handbag snatching and that sort of robbery. That could be funded by the cc companys as it will cut down their losses. Also they might even pass that saving on in the form of lower interest rates (how some justify charging 20% in this financial climbate I don't know...).

k

Ross, I'm not saying you should need to get a credit card if you didn't want to have one. That's the part where it being voluntary comes in. If you don't want it, then you won't have to.
However, if you read my second example when it came to using your credit card, wouldn't you think it'd be safer, as Kelli also said, to have a card that could double up as a authenticity check when using the crecdit card? Teh way things work in the UK at the moment, the stores check the signature on the reciept against the signature on the credit card, and since there are no pictures of you on the credit card, anyone "borrowing" your credit card could use it if they only learned how to almost write your signature. Most stores will be satisfied with 'close enough'. Same thing if you write a cheque. In Sweden, most stores will ask for a picture ID to verify that you are in deed the person who's name is on the cheque. In Sweden, people don't complain about having to verify who they are They're happy to do it.

As I've said before, I don't think it should be compulsory to have an ID card if you don't want it, but on the other hand, what harm does it do? I also don't think that police or other governmental agencies should be allowed to stop just anyone to ask them to identify themselves by producing an ID card.

Why would it be such a bad thing to have an ID card?
If you're carrying your credit card around with you, what harm could another card the same size do in your wallet?
Why are people in some coutries (none specified in particular) so paranoid about having ID cards?

Maybe it's just my upbringing, but I don't see the problem...

Neither do a lot of people in the UK, it's just some seem to think it will harm them in some way.

Mel

Mel I dont think it will harm me
- I just do not see the need
- (I know who I am!)

In 20 years I have never had to prove my identity other than when crossing an international border and for that I have a perfectly adequate passport.

As a cashier in a busy supermarket for 7 or 8 years I can attest to the fairly high proportion of people whose signatures don't closely match those on their credit cards. On the odd occasion when we queried a signature because it had absolutely no correspondence with the specimen on the card we would find we were wrong and the customer would be extremely annoyed.
The central clearing system queries a random selection of cards. The proportion is higher at the busiest times (eg Bank Holidays and the last shopping day before Christmas) - which, as you can imagine, frays tempers even more. When this happens a member of management - or at least supervisory staff - has to be called to take the card and phone the central clearing system (and since they're busy it's very hard to get through) who then ask hir to go backwards and forwards asking the customer all sorts of security questions, such as mother's maiden name, d.o.b.... and eventually they will give a code to be punched in to allow the transaction to continue.
All this time the till cannot be used for anything else - leading to long queues - and the customer can not have hir card back so bang go any appointments sie may have.

I'm sorry if anyone thinks I'm stupid for giving convenience as a reason for having a reasonably infallible, universal form of ID available but I've seen too much of that kind of thing - and as a single parent with a full-time job my time was always far too valuable for me to want to have to deal with that kind of hassle (as a customer in a hurry).

EGMel and someone else (not sure who - sie had only read the 1st and last pages) put it really well. That was what I had been trying to say.

Someone else said that he only carries the specific pieces of ID that he needs. That's all very well for people that have the leisure time (and the money) to go backwards and forwards all the time.
Many of us have to work between school/college runs and shop during our lunch hours and can't afford to spend up to an hour and £5 or so going home for different sorts of ID so we have to carry everything all the time.

Giford your posting 124
You may have responded to my original posting but in no way have you faced up to the view that I expressed in that posting.. You have used it to make a series of objections that have been repeated again and again. Let's make it simple. Is there any way at all that you could be induced to walk around with a sandwich board saying "I will never carry an Identity Card". If the answer is yes then you fundametally agree with my view. If the answer is no you disagree.
On the question of who pays read posting 70.
You sign yourself Gif. Why didn't you use this as you nick name ? Not sure of your identity..

fat Kelly
I like to keep involved in the conversation. However I do like people stick to the point.
Nobody has. You even go one step further and choose to repremand me for trying to stick to the point. I assume that you have read the 124 postings that have been made made so far.

Oh dear Ross

How did you get your bl##dy Pass Port ?

Dear fat Kelly
With the right kind of ID Card you would not need a credit card.

YAY! Why not put all of your eggs into one basket and when your ID card gets stolen/ripped off/misused you will be totally screwed because your life depends so much on a fallible piece of plastic and silicon.

Great idea.

Post 1: It amounts to bribing the country out of some basic civil liberties. It is a horrendous idea and one that I disagree with and one would fight strenuously. There.



Ste

Ste - Your posting 130
Once again you create your own argument and then shoot it down.
Posting 46 was addressed to you. Please read it
I suggest that given a true need to carry a simple ID Card you could be induced to do so. Having established your unique identity beyond doubt how you use it and how others use it should be under your control.
I can't speak for the rest of the world but here in the UK you are 'tagged' at birth. First to make sure that the hospital don't loose you, shortly after that your birth is legally registered and you are given a birth certificate and a name. From that point on the whole system gets a little chaotic to say the least, made more chaotic by bureaucratic inefficiency. The system is brought to an end quite specifically with a death certificate. Those two certificates are legal requirements. I suggest there is an urgent need to tidy up the years in between. If you don't do this with some form of ID Card how do you do it. ?