h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Ummm...

I'm not sure where to go with the most recent turn of this conversation. It seems to have gone from "Am I homophobic?" to "Are they (is s/he) homophobic?"

Clearly (to me, anyhow), when speaking about a large number of people, just about any opinion or prejudice is going to be present.

There is a danger of reaching conclusions of the many based on the opinions of a few.

For instance, as I said earlier, I was a tech support person for a lesbian chorus. At least one member of that chorus always did an internal double-take whenever she met a lesbian or gay man who was not involved with a gay/lesbian choral organization. She literally had to stop and think "You mean there are lesbians/gays who DON'T sing? Oh yeah, I guess there are."

Of course some lesbians have a problem with gay men. And some don't. Diversity within a community that has been stereotyped. How 'bout that?

About how would you feel if <-----> told you they were gay...
One of my friends did so, in a private conversation type way. The other just assumed everyone knew. As far as I knew, no one cared, possibly because he was being so un-bothered and open about it. It seemed that no one (and this was at school, where taunting was merciless for everyone slightly 'different') bothered those who were comfortable with themselves, whereas those suspected of 'deviance' or who made a point of being unusual got flak. It took years of me being pointedly strange before people ignored it.
Also I have a friend who describes themself as asexual. But they state that their orientation would be gay. Obviously they know, even without the experience of attraction etc. so it seems that (in this case at least) it's more of an issue than simply who you're attracted to.

Oh, I sooo agree with you there. If it were a matter of who you are attracted to then I would be a very confused little person indeed

I'm confused anyway, about most things. Surprised, too.

The whole thing about straight girls being attracted to Gay guys, could it be that they know there is the flirting and fun with no chance of the guy actually trying to hit on them! So it's not a case of being attracted to them, more viewing them as flirting partners!

I could be really stereotypical now and say that Gay men are generally very good flirts, but then I might be accused of something, so I wont

Mel

In my experience they are generally very good flirts. And most of the ones I know are so very attractive! I find them very easy to talk with about personal things, because of the type of people they are (although with my closest friend he was obviously like that before I knew he was gay). However, I've always found males easier to get on with than other females, in a friendship sense- no bitching.

I've not had time to read through the whole thread, but has anyone mentioned the semantics of the word homophobia? I've always thought it a bit odd that we lump a dislike of homosexuality in with an irrational fear of, say, spiders (arachnophpbia) or enclosed spaces (claustrophobia) instead of with the isms. Surly homosexist is a better word.
Homophobia sounds a little too much like something a person has no control over, perhaps even legitimising the prejudice.

For the (hetro) men who've never fancied a man, you've probably never seen Jonny Depp in '21 Jump Street'.

...and, slightly off topic, why are smokers called smokers instead of nicotine addicts?

Homophobia (sorry) can be irrational. Certainly it's difficult to think of a valid reason for hating all gay people. But you could separate the two types, like xenophobia or racism.
Smokers aren't called that because they wouldn't like it. But it's a term I've used. Can't say it's not true, though... (how about the tendency of the media to ignore the distinction between use and abuse of drugs? Grrr.)

On use and abuse of drugs. Have you heard the D12 record? The artists, knowing that all the references to drugs in 'Green and Yellow Purple Pills' would see the record banned, just changed the words to cover shooting people, sexism and homosexism instead and – voila – an instant hit, loved by everyone!

Sounds pretty typical to me!

Mel

It seems to me that women like gay guys because as I´ve said before they don´t want a man. What they really want is a woman with a penis. And the gay-guy is someone they can go shopping with, discuss clothes and make-up with and all that stuff. It´s only the sex-thing missing and there I do think many women hope they can change them.

Perhaps (some) women like (some) gay men because there is no pressure. No 'When Harry Met Sally' style will they/won't they shag problems. I think to stereotype gay men as effete fairies who like girly pursuits (shopping, talking about boys 'giggle giggle') is prejudicial anyway – just as bad as the booted, dungareed dyke or the black man with natural rhythm.
I expect a lot of women enjoy the idea of a man:
a: being interested in what they're saying and not what's down their jumper.
b: looking at their face when they're chatting (rather than staring at what's down their jumper).
c: arguing about the cuteness of a blokes arse.

Well, the reasons why I here portrayed gay people as feminine, is because it seems it is only the feminine gays women like.

Personally I can listen to what interesting things women have to say without looking down their jumper. You just don´t often meet women with something interesting to say. Usually they just talk about the cuteness of a bloke´s ass.

So you're saying they want a friend then?

Mel

I say they want a girlfriend, in a man´s body. Which is what you get in many cases with gays.

One thing I've found unique to my frienships with gay men, whether they are the stereotypical 'fem' type, or just regular guys who happen to be attracted to men, is that there is a lack of competition. Often in even the closest friendships with women, there can be some form of competition going on, though it might be very subtle. With gay men it becomes a moot point-- that they aren't attracted to me can in no way be seen as a personal thing. It allows for a greater freedom to know each other as people, dilutes any underlying sexual tension/competition. I like that.

How about we quit trying to figure out why women like gay guys as friends (or whatever) and just consider the fact that maybe the woman just likes the gay guy because he's a cool person? My guy friend who's gay, he's cool since he and I can start babbling on about Star Trek, and all sorts of stuff, and go on and on for hours, (well, that is when I can actually get him to stop doing fifty billion other things at the same time, and actually talk to me! ). It is sorta' cool that he and I can talk about the cuteness of some bloke's ass, but that's something I can do when talking with my female friends too...

What I do like about him being gay is that I don't have to worry about him taking my actions, or interest in what he's saying as anything more than that. With regular guys who are attracted to women, I sometimes have to worry about them wanting to make our friendship more than that, and the potential mess that can result no matter what I tell them. If I'm not interested, I have to try to find a way to tell 'em that without killing our friendship, but then also be able to not lead them on if/when we continue to be friends... If I do decide to take a chance, and it doesn't work out, I usually end up loosing that friend. I've had both things happen, and they're not fun. One friend of mine hates my guts now, partially since I wasn't any help stopping abuse from a so called friend of ours (and I think he thinks I had helped, but even if I didn't, I was bad enough not stopping it) and I think partially since I turned him down when he admitted that he was interested in me. He was a cool guy, and it sucks that now whenever I see him, he usually shoots me a nasty look, and doesn't want anything to do with me. I've also had the deal where I took a chance, and now the guy's not even my friend anymore... actually, that was exactly what happened with my first two boyfriends... though the first one, I can talk to him when I see him (not often), but the second one, I basically feel like if I see him ever again, it'll be too soon. *shrugs* So it's nice to have a guy friend where things won't become complicated, and potentially messy.

I had a gay friend who was a barman. We would stand either side of the bar eyeing up the same talent. Fun.

Although I have been single for a while I have also been working in a consultancy environment, this is slightly artificial and very like college. There are a lot of people in similar circumstances, w/ similar social needs and opportunities. So socialising w/ single men has been artificially simple for me.

Now that I am back in the 'real' world I realise that if I phone someone up and say 'do you fancy a movie' there is a risk that the subtext is 'do you fancy me'. This is great if that is there, but if all I want is a movie then I have to either take a risk, or think of someone else to go with, or go on my own.

I was discussing this with a girlfriend, who said 'what you need is a gay friend' - and blow me, she is right.

On a slightly different subject, there IS a major difference between gay and effeminate. Obvious I know, but there you are. This was brought home v clearly to me when I was on a retreat over Christmas, and three days in, one of the members of our group was sharing some personal history. Up until that point I had no idea that he was gay. In fact, if I had had more energy at the time, I'd have tried flirting w/ him because I quite fancied him.

My zwei pfennigs.

***B

A quick note about my circumstances....

I share a flat with two other people - my fiancee, and a friend who is gay. So she lives in an ideal situation. She gets me , and she gets to discuss other men and bitch about me to our flatmate. Also, I'm often absolved from shopping duty (before, I could often be seen outside womens' clothes shops in Princes Street, newspaper in hand)

DG

I just read a description of a programme on TV tonight. It´s about how they have three genders on the Island of Samoa. Boy, girl and boy who acts feminine. If he does they start raising him as a girl and call it a fafaine. Interesting. But I wonder what they do about boyish girls.