h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Well Hello, God. Nice of you to drop in and thereby:

a) prove your own existence and
b) render all further discussion pointless

Seriously,
<>

The problem with the "edge of the universe" ( which has been "seen" as the micro-wave constant background hiss, the echo of the Big Bang ) is that our universe is, apparently, both finite and infinite. Finite in that it had a measurable start-up point in measurable, linear time, and infinity cannot, by definition, have an end, at either end, as it were, or it's not infinite.

But it's also infinite in that time and space are constantly expanding, ( like yeast-dough rising in a loaf of currant bread, all the currants-galaxies- are being pushed further apart from each other, nand this is also a measurable phenomenon.) What can't be measured, but only hypothesised at the moment, is the great percentage of "dark matter" which is necessary to account for the observed gravitational phenomena, such as the relative speeds of galactic rotation, and the fact that there is enough ( or may be that should really be - not enough ) matter expanding to keep the universe expanding infinitely.

My understanding is that cosmologists now reckon that our universe will not reach a finite end-point after which gravity will pull it all back together into an ever-more-rapidly collapsing "black hole."

So we are in an infinite, yet expanding universe with a finite origin in a "singularity' of infinite mass and zero dimensions from which all space and time have subsequently evolved!!

And that's only our immediate universe, which is now seriously considered to be but one of an infinite number of parallel universes...a mind-boggling concept which nonetheless makes sense of some of the mathematics of Quantum Field Theory.

As for subatomic particles, they are getting weirder and weirder. It helps to remember that they are as much waves as they are "particles," more like interference patterns between three-dimensional wave motions of "energy" than microscopic specks of dust.ie, there is no solidity anywhere, just the inter-action of the four fundamental forces, [ gravitation, electro-magnetic, strong and weak nuclear. ] On this occasion I won't stick my neck out and say that consciousness appears to be a fundamental aspect of the underlying matrix ( but maybe Moth will do that)

THE FOUNDATIONS OF JEWISH BELIEF: The Thirteen Foundations of the Ramba'm @ http://hometown.aol.com/lazera/13yesodos.html

The Messiah:
The word moshiach means “anointed”. It is commonly translated as “messiah”.
Moshiach will be a normal human being born from human parents. He will not be a god, or a “son of god”.

Moshiach will be mortal. He will not live forever. When he dies he will be succeeded by his son, like any normal king.

Moshiach will not atone for our sins. Every person must atone for his own sins; no one else can do it for you.

Moshiach will not change the laws of the Torah in any way. If he attempts to do so then we know that he is a false messiah.


Alji

Hi Chai. You're struggling between the concepts of an actual and a potential infinite. If the universe will expand forever it is potentially infinite in size. It can't, however, become an actual infinite because that would take infinite time. Hence there are no actual infinites in reality.

Of course, a potential universe has an infinite potential for growth.

Chai, I don't believe a word of it!!! Although I quote it, I don't believe it, I think the explanation is far more simple than scientists would have us believe.
By definition there can only be one universe.
If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?
Black holes are not holes and emit radiation.
When we look out into space, we are looking at what was, not what is. If the Big Bang is true, the light from galaxies 12 billion light years away was emitted when the universe was one sixth of its present size.
We will never be able to travel back in time because the past is not a physical dimension.

Alji

Oops! Last line should have said 'the universe has .......'

Toxx, can you prove there are no actual infinites?

Alji

Alji. Not this again! "If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?"

What would count as an answer for you? Custard?

There is nothing that it is expanding into. If there were something, custard or whatever, it too would be part of the expanding universe. What would THAT be expanding into? The question is answered when you realise that you can no longer meaningfully ask it!

Alji. Can you give me a single example of an actual infinite, thus disproving my claim? The arguments are all present or linked to via my usual kalam reference: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/billramey/kalam.htm

How would an actual infinite come into existence? Certainly not by successive addition (growth or expansion, if you prefer) because that would take infinitely long. Things that take infinitely long haven't actually happened.

Toxx, why would it need to come into existance if it had always existed?

Hindu beliefs; The Laws of Manu:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu.htm
What happens if you break the law;
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu/manu12.htm

A site critical of Transcendental Meditation; falling down the TM rabbit hole:
http://www.suggestibility.org/

Psychological manipulation practiced by corporations, governments, and abusive families.
http://www.trancenet.org/index.shtml


Alji

god -

Exactly! There must have been a reason to have it, but we (adam/eve) more or less completly screwed up that plan. It'd be my guess that God had probably meant for man to eat from the tree /at some point/, probably when God would have had time to teach us of responsibility, justice, and so on. But we'll never know.

Mystrunner, even Jews believe the Garden of Eden is a myth!!!

Alji

Really? Christians do.

Alji. "... why would it need to come into existance if it had always existed?" You mean 'the universe' I guess, which I say has not always existed. It has only existed since, perhaps, the beginning of time which has only been around for a finite period (both being actual). God, being eternal and independent of time has always existed in the eternal rather than limited-temporal sense.

Time hasn't existed forever any more than space extends forever. There is plenty of evidence that these things had their beginning about 15 billion years ago. I know you can always find links to sites where this is contested.

Hello, Math!

>However, if you reflect carefully, would you say that you have been at times a little dismissive of the viewpoints of non-Christians?<

I have freely admitted on many occasions that my view of the present has been distorted by the teaching of my past. I must also say that having that pointed out to me, on many occasions on this thread, that I have modified my thinking on many of these subjects.

>Whether you would get the chance to defend me before your God is a question. I seriously doubt that He would let you.<

Math, I seriously doubt that my god is as bad as we have been led to believe. I really think that if it came right down to it, I wouldn't have to defend you at all; you seem to me to be one of the more forgiving souls that I have encountered in life. If you are that, I feel my god would smile at your patience, tossle your hair, and let you walk right in!

Of course, that is just the way I feel about my god. But what If I am wrong? What if you are wrong?

Under those circumstances, I would rush to your side with a plea of "aww, c'mon, give him a break, will ya?"

>However, if you reflect carefully, would you say that you have been at times a little dismissive of the viewpoints of non-Christians?<

Yes, but would you say that I have not also been dismissive of even my own viewpoints as a RC? After all, even in my self description I describe myself as a cafeteria catholic, taking what I need and leaving the rest on the counter

My point has always been to find God.

Thanks for all the blessings! That's awful nice

Heaping happiness on you...
diversity

well im wiccan, actually.

ps. the above post was probably irrelevant.

Chaiwallah.

Yes, I've been on this thread longer than anyone else, I think, though I only beat Math by a short head. And some of that early stuff is pretty good, too, IMHO.

Or possibly not. There's a *lot* of energy in the vacuum, even if it's thinly spread, and matter is just a manifestation of energy.

Mystrunner Not clear here what you mean. Does the 'what you would do' refer to wrong actions, or right actions? Either way, there are *always* other, external, factors
influencing what I do. And if my knowledge of what is right, even if not acted upon, is the same as God's why shouldn't "God's sense of right and wrong" be a projection of mine, rather than the other way about?

Noggin

'Yes, I've been on this thread longer than anyone else, I think,';

No Nogg, Kaz's first post was No.2, last post was 4 daye ago, No.9558 and your first was No. 125.

Alji

Toxx, if time hasn't existed forever and space doesn't extend forever, what is beyond space and how did the big bang happen if there was no time.
(Please, no custard this time)
The Two Micron All Sky Survey at IPAC
http://www.ipac.caltech.edu/2mass/
http://www.ipac.caltech.edu/2mass/gallery/galmorph/S/g080_068_002774.jpg
Alji

Post 9678: But ANY explanation could be described as just being there because of the lack of a better explanation. Post 9691: <"faith is believing in what cannot be proven." Acutely put.> It should be pointed out that that's just as the word is used today - quite opposite from what the word 'faith' in the Bible meant. (Although actually, maybe the English language does retain some of the words original meaning - I just looked in a thesaurus and it states that a synonym of 'proven' is 'faithful'.) Yes, if by 'better' you mean 'more complex, and no more certain than before'. Post 9706: Since you state that it's obvious without giving any reason why, it seems more like you cradle it in your arms than chew on it! Evolution theory certainly does give you something you chew on - and when you do, it deflates like a whoopee cushion. Armageddon, a term taken from Revelation 16, isn't the end of the world - at least, not the world in the sense of all life on the planet - it's just a symbolic place at which is fought 'the war of the great day of God the Almighty.' Post 9711: I might be confused about terms here, but I think you must mean acceleration due to gravity. I think the gravitational constant is something universal, unaffected by anything that happens on earth. Post 9719: But who says God is within the universe - indeed, having created it, it is most probable that he is outside it. Post 9730: Centrifuges etc. only cause an illusion of gravity, not gravity itself. Post 9737: But you said the same about Hoo - and he was deliberately and undeniably abusive. Post 9738: Yes, WE could. But you weren't originally suggesting what we could do, you were stating what God should have done. Post 9739: kat, if you feel that your posts are being ignored then you probably have to pay more attention to how you write them. Take this quote: I can think of a few possible things this sentence could mean, but I don't know which is correct. And as long as I can't figure out what you're saying, I have little choice but to ignore you. Also, the fact that you see no replies doesn't necessarily mean that your post was ignored - it could just mean that nobody disagreed. Post 9743: You've said this a few times, and I don't think I've asked yet - What do you mean by a right-wing bible basher? Post 9749: But a Christian is someone who does as Christ said, so you could say that any council he gave was talking about Christians, as it was giving guidance about what they should do.