h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

one thing that worries me alot is the amount of harm we have done to the enviroment and the power multi-national companies have.

kat

Well put, Math

Toxx


We are free to act as we choose within the constraints of the laws of physics. (I can't jump a hundred feet in the air even if I *choose* to). I thought I wasn't saying anything about volition or cause and effect either . In fact I'm pretty sure I was saying that our talk about free will is NOT NOT NOT *about* them, so there's nothing wrong with that. As to whether that's sufficient, it depends on the objective of the exercise. What I *was* arguing against is the notion that "will" can exist in a vacuum.

Would I care to define a "thing"? No. But the gravitational constant (or inconstant - Alji?) isn't one, any more than the number three.

Exactly. It's the end product of its causal powers.

Kat
Sorry if you were feeling ignored; this mostly happens (in my case, anyway), if I agree with what you say. Which I mostly do, despite my atheism.

Noggin

The only unchanging things in the universe may be 'quarks'.

Moth, there isn't a 'white hole' on the other side of a 'black hole'
<quote from http://www.spacedaily.com/news/blackhole-99a.html >
>Dr. Andrew Fabian said the total energy emitted by massive black holes could be 10-50 percent of that emitted by stars.
Energy emitted from the regions of massive black holes is underestimated, Fabian said, because previous X-ray satellites could not detect dust-penetrating X-rays from the distant massive black holes and also because there are no superior far-infrared telescopes to observe the re-emitted black hole radiation. Stars, on the other hand, are well documented because they radiate their energy largely as optical and ultraviolet light. This radiation is measured by world-class telescopes both in orbit and on Earth.<

Alji

Math, your example of veggie-consumation is well and good, but what about something beyond what man decides is right? God laid down laws of right and wrong; these are not something you and I can change. They are rooted deep inside our souls, as that little voice that tells us, 'No, that isn't right.'
There must be a good and a evil. Otherwise, there would be no consequence. I could murder and do no wrong, and, if there is no good, or evil, would not feel guilt, or sorrow. No one would care, because there is no reason to care. See what I'm getting at? It's like the space between molocules. It exists, but it is not thought about, and in the end, it determines a lot. Evil exists as surely as shadow and light.


God created law for man, not for animals. He created the animals for us to rule, and do with what we should choose, be it love, feed, eat, or whatnot. And besides, I have seen very, very little sign of a flourishing homosexual community in the animal kingdom. Animal instinct is for male to reproduce with female. Look at carp, or whatever it is that returns to their place of birth to respawn. If they were in it for the pleasure, anywhere would do.

Dear Mystrunner,

I am not an atheist, as I think you know, but this section is simply gobsmacking....

<>

You may have seen very little evidence of homosexuality amongst animals, but then you're not a zoologist. Maybe you should read a bit more widely. Believe me, there's plenty of it out there.

Particularly worth studying are the sexual habits of our nearest genetic relations, the bonobos, or pygmy chimpanzees, whose entire day, when not spent eating, is spent in every possible type and combination of sexual activity, including homosexuality and incest. It appears thay have channelled all their aggressive instincts away from violence , and into lovemaking. Something a few so-called Christians would do well to emulate.

Finally, is sexual instincts are as clear-cut as yopu would lioke to believe, how do you account for lesbian cattle? Anyone who has lived on or near a farm will know how frequently heifers ( young fenmale calves ) mount each other.

And how do you account for the following, which I witnessed myself on more than one occasion in my friends' house ( the friends were two elderly doctors )....a female spaniel puppy mounting and vigorously humping a neutered male cat????

Why not? All actions have consequences, some important, some trivial, some good, some bad. All societies have concepts of right and wrong, with different details. But why is it necessary for any of this to stem from God? To say that you could murder and do no wrong is nonsense - murder *is* wrongful killing. This doesn't change just because this is the form of social life that humans have for themselves, and which makes sense in terms of that form of life. *God's* sense of right and wrong, on the other hand, is a complete mystery. Why is *this* right, and *that* wrong? There are no roots, no continuity, no explanation here, just diktat.

Noggin

Noggin. I don't think we have much disagreement ahout freewill except that you are free to do something you can't do like jumping high. You aren't able to do it, but that's a different matter.

God cannot arbitrarily dictate what is right and wrong. Having made us as we are, right and wrong are inbuilt (according to me). He can't just switch right and wrong as the fancy takes Him. If he had made us so that stopping hitting us was painful, it would be right to hit us and wrong to stop!

Inspired by Az, I decided to go right back to some of the early postings when Hoovooloo was weighing in hot and heavy ( and 152, his decimation of Math's arguments..sorry Math, but it was a brilliant piece of logical writing...was a classic ). Gosh Noggin, you've been frequenting this thread for a helluva long time. Surely you should have been awarded a medal or something by now, for sheer endurance, or bloodymindedness, or something.

Anyway, I thought the following quote from Hoovooloo, as an argument AGAINST belief was rather interesting...

<>

My understanding of Quantum Field Theory is that "matter," in as much as it can be defined at all, is CONSTANTLY spontaneously, emerging from nothing. Unless of course you maintain that the emptiness of the vacuum state doesn't really count as nothing.

Just thought that was of interest.

Ho hum

Moth. More than you want here: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/PlancksConstant.html

There, it is said to be 'the fundamental constant of nature'. Hmmmm ..... quite a claim!

Right-oh...

Chaiwalla - I know, you're probably right. I've no experiance with animals, but one way or another, it doesn't matter what they do. They don't have laws, or sins. God wants us to be happy and just, and doesn't care that much about dogs and cats, though not to say that he doesn't care.

Nogg - We were talking about there being right and wrong, eh? I agree, that murder is wrong/evil. You would agree, right?
God's sense of right and wrong is a complete mystery, yes. But all the same, it is what you would do if you didn't have other factors influencing you. We can no more understand His what and why then we could see the outline of England if we were standing in central London.

Toxxin - God made what was right and wrong in the beginning. Do not eat from the tree. We ate from the tree. Do not have other Gods before me. We made the golden calf.
Of course, people will protest, 'Why leave the tree there in the first place, if He didn't want us to eat from it?'
Isn't that like a 12 year old saying, 'But why even have the cookie jar?'

Wow, I hate these things. For the longest time, every time I try to post to this tread, or one with the same general content, something goes wrong with the computer I'm at. First it was the post wouldn't load, so I had to re-write it... then, my net connection failed... this time, the computer started opening many, many IE windows... I hate these sort of co-incidences. And it's a brand-new computer, too.

Anyone know why? I'm having to save my posts before I hit the button for fear of losing a good thought, now... aggrivating.

Yo Chai. Yep sure it's of interest. Would have liked to be on this thread back then. Hoo's other point is misguided too. Most Christians (as opposed to Jews maybe) don't believe in the reversal of physical death, but in the continuation of something non-physical after death. Ok, maybe sometimes it is accompanied by physical-seeming manifestations.

It isn't just you or your kit, Myst. This board was down earlier today and still seems to be struggling. Ditto some other beeb boards. It seems fine at this hour (no, I just had trouble), but I still clipboard my stuff before posting.

Were your new instances of IE popups for various commercial sites or just duplicates of where you already were?

Myst. I have many problems with that! Did God just arbitrarily decide that X is right and Y is wrong, or did He tell us because they WERE right or wrong, or did He make right and wrong along with everything else?

As I have said earlier, I go for the second answer with connections to the third.

>> It is a good place for I will be saving the unbaptised babies while you party away eternity<<
Matholwch, I am a bit upset that I previously did quite a long and thoughtful posting, when you previously mentioned rescuing unbaptised babies, and you appeared not to have noticed it! I can't give you its number, cos I am at the Public Library and therefore limited as to what I am able to do, but *please* - check it out... .

My best guess would be #2, but I have no way of knowing. Then again, he could have easily made what is right and wrong, and then told us. I mean, he tells us to forgive unlimited offenses, to love our neighbors, to not murder, lie, steal, or commit adultry, to help those in need (Good samaritan,) to be humble, to listen to good advice, to delight in wisdom, to overlook insults, and so on. I've still yet to find anything that I wouldn't like to do.

'Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and lean not on your own understanding;'
- Proverbs 3:5

Oh, and the popups were all of this tread. A good 85-90, at least.

This has been happening ever since I've started posting to this tread. Oh well... oh, and if anyone's read "The Screwtape Letters," these happenings are rather well-explained there. Or, at least, well illustrated.

-Moth
Thus far there is as much evedence that the universe is infinite as opposed to finite; aside from noone actually having seen the edge of the universe.
Agreeably something infinite can't get too much larger and seeing that the basic structure of everything is composed of subatomic particles I'll accecpt that it can't be changed.

-Mystrunner
Where else would you put the cookies?

i don't think u have 2 worry about god or religion its your self u have 2 worry about as u can only judge yourself. you have a free hand in life to decide what u want to do. so make the most of it.

i don't think u have 2 worry about god or religion its your self u have 2 worry about as u can only judge yourself. you have a free hand in life to decide what u want to do. so make the most of it.