h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I thought all sin was supposed to do that. I think the main difference is the number of Hail Mary's you'd have to say to be forgiven or something. I'm not quite sure when you'd say them after committing suicide, though.

heh heh, suicide, the ultimate mortal sin? is rather final i guess...

you've got me on the hail mary idea....

believe it or not, when the Bible says that Christ died for all men, it means it. even those who go to hell, its just that those who end up going have rejected it, and opted for a life/eternity with out God. as far as being forgiven, thats up to you. you can accept the forgiveness, or not; thats your decision. (note: not work for, not be good enough to deserve, but accept.)

Erm, two words are springing to mind here, "can of worms" and "opened a". I appreciate what Kid has been saying, I am sorry if my question has caused anyone any difficulties. I think the debate has left the realms of the original request any way. You have certainly all given me something to think about. If the script gets anywhere I'll let you know. (And give you all a credit of course).

Thanks all

simon

I'm not really sure how I found myself here, but I've been reading the postings and they're v interesting. I don't know much about Catholicism, BUT I am a Christian, I do belive God loves us and I have suffered from depression for a number of years.

I don't think committing suicide would automatically mean you go to Hell, as the God I believe in loves me and would take into account the state of mind I was in at the time.

The other thing I want to say is, 'toying' with the idea of suicide is VERY dangerous and not at all healthy. I know this from bitter experience.

If I had not constantly thought of suicide as a way out I would not have found myself on the edge of a train platform several years ago when a boyfriend dumped me. I would not have jumped onto the track, nearly died from being electrocuted, spent months in hospital, have scars over most of my body, had to go through years of therapy, limp to this day and for the rest of my life, lost my job, have to figure out what I tell people when they ask why I limp, what my scars are etc, figure out what to tell my son when he is older and wants to know what my scars are / limp is, not have problems getting life insurance.

I also have my husband worrying that every time we argue I'm going to go out and do something stupid. I devestated my parents with what I did. I destroyed many friendships and had to rebuild others.
I had to totally rebuild my life on the foundations of life, not death.

Please, if anyone wants to talk to me about this, my e-mail address is [email protected]. Also in the UK the Samaritans are available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Jude

Jude

I am a little embarassed, and rather ashamed.

I hope that you can see that from my original posting, I was naively asking for some info for a script. It all seems to have got a little out of hand. Free speech perhaps, but it would seem that you have put me in my place (and quite rightly justified Kid's intervention). To you and any other people whom I may have offended (I'm not sure offended is the right word is it?), I am truly sorry. I did not think this one through very well did I?

Best wishes

Simon

Simon, I don't think you've done anything wrong. Suicide is a topic that pushes different buttons with different people, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. Quite the contrary.

I would like to recommend some reading, if you or anyone is interested. David Hume wrote a good essay called "On Suicide". I found it in a volume of his works called "Writings on Religion". I don't remember the publisher or anything useful like that. Somebody quoted Kant, though, and I can't let that get by without even mentioning Hume, who's better.

In the essay, he argues agains society's condemnation of suicide, without, I should add, advocating the act itself.


I've heard that one reason suicide has been illegal in many nations (it seems daft, since you can't punish the person who commits the crime) is to deprive survivors of suicide of their rightful inheritance, which seems mean. Insult to injury, y'know? As a survivor of a suicide (parent, and don't get embarassed for my sake, I'm just fine, thanks), I'm glad those laws aren't in effect now.


Did you say you're working on a script? My sister is a playwright who has been polishing for a few years a script about suicide. It has been very therapeutic for her to work through some ideas in the play. It can be a very important and significant topic for art, I think. Good luck with your writing.

Thanks for that. Hoped that my previous posting wasn't too pretentious.

Cheers

Simon

Bagpuss: "I thought all sin was supposed to do that. I think the main difference is the number of Hail Mary's you'd have to say to be forgiven or something. I'm not quite sure when you'd say them after committing suicide, though."

Here's how it works in Catholic mythology: All sins put a bit of a black mark on the soul. Confession and penance wipe it clean again. However, as nobody confesses *everything*, everyone still has a bit of black on their soul when they die (unless they're rich, in which case they purchase a plenary indulgence, which is a permanent stain repellant for the soul). The amount of black on your soul at death determines how long you have to remain in Purgatory, a halfway house between Heaven and Hell, before moving on to Heaven.

However, some sins are so heinous that no amount of Purgatory can redeem them, and the person goes straight on to Hell. The papacy declared suicide to be one of these.

Besides, how can you confess and say Hail Mary's after you kill yourself?

This isnt relevant to bible study but i found it amusing.
It was in a film i saw and the character who was depressed said, in response to his concerned friends "I'd never kill myself, my mother told me never to go where i wasn't invited".

See, whenever I think i've discovered the worst of everything something comes along and spoils it all. Buying your soul a kind of "spiritual forcefield" is just another example of the double standards and general "wrongness" of contemporary religion. Rich versus poor yet again.

And no I'm not some misguided middle class socialist. I am a misguided middle class capitalist. Balls to Monty I say.

have you heard that song by that fellow, you know the contravercial one who was on tv? use a quote from that. would be interesting and humorous

Sorry, sounds like a good idea, but I am not sure who you are talking about.

OOps, I'm sorry if I freaked anyone out with my last posting, I guess that's a lesson learned about reading the ALL the previous posts before leaping in, but I entered this 'conversation' at the point where someone seemed to be saying it was a good thing to think about suicide a lot, as some sort of 'way out' which is what I was objecting to.

As to quotes etc, this isn't biblical but have a look at Sylvia Plath's poetry, especially Lady Lazarus and read her novel The Bell Jar. She was a person who was OBSESSED with suicide, but who also wrote very intelligently about it.

Also, a lesson to be learned from her life, and tragic death: she constantly thought about suicide and attempted it several times, mainly as a cry for help. The last time she attempted it she stuck her head in a gas oven. Her two children were asleep upstairs. Luckily they were ok. A friend was meant to come round who didn't turn up, and a neighbour who may have raised the alarm was knocked out by the fumes. A case of another cry for help going tragically wrong.

Jude

No doubt at the risk of offending the Romantics I've always been fond of the notion that to die-for-love was a wonderful thing, but to commit suicide over failed love was ..illogical.

peace
~jwf~

Colonel, I know you love making religion look bad, but please try to be accurate, or in this case, to tell the whole story. Plenary Indulgences haven't been sold for centuries. Catholic mythology *has* evolved a bit over the years, y'know. (For better or for worse, I make no claim)

Otherwise, I think you're spot on. (That was sort of a pun; get it? "Spot" on... like a black mark on your soul is a "spot"? Get it? Aren't jokes funnier when they're over-explained? )

I read something about plenary indulgences in the year 2000. They weren't for sale, but anyone who wanted one had to visit a site designated by their local bishop, attend services, and do a bunch of other stuff.

No, they weren't sold, but they were granted, and the church probably made some coin for the extra attendance the Jubilee year was intended to generate.

The more things change...

Sylvia Plath attempted suicide twice, once was a very serious attempt, which miraculously failed. The second which was not a serious attempt, unfortunately succeeded. This was not so much a "cry for help" as a twisted attempt to complete a cycle in her personal mythology which suggested she should "visit" death once every ten years (ten years before her first attempt she had been involved in an RTA in which she narrowly escaped death), so she staged another brush with death whist the balance of her mind was... dubious to say the least.

Anyone who wants more details on this should read "The Savage God" by A Alvarez, a study of suicide which begins with the authors personal recollections of Plath and the events of her death, and goes on to study various sociological, personal and literary notions of the act.