h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi to all the researchers out there. I am looking for some assistance. Following a rather harrowing web search session during which I found a very worrying site from some very right wing religious nut (see my page) I am looking for some religious knowledge.

I am trying to research a possible script which I am working on. I am looking for a good quote from the bible regarding suicide. I was always under the impression that the bible took a very dim view of committing suicide as this was a crime in the eyes of God as the suicide commiter was taking the sacred life which God had given them. Can anyone direct me to a genuine Bible quote which I could use in the script? I would be most grateful. The fact that this is for a script should be swept subtly under the carpet (I know how this kind of sensationalism is frowned upon by the religious community but you forget that it is getting people like me into religion).

Thankyou all

Simon

The Bible actually has very little to say about the morality of suicide, unless you over-interpret "Thou shalt not kill". Here's the closest I can find to a condemnation of it

For I have heard the slander of many,
Terror is on every side;
While they took counsel together against me,
They schemed to take away my life.
But as for me, I trust in You, O LORD,
I say, "You are my God."
My times are in Your hand;
Deliver me from the hand of my enemies and from those who persecute me.

Psalms 31:13-15


What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20

The gist is that it's for God to decide when people die, but it's not exactly definitive stuff, is it?

2.Sam.17:5-14, 23; 1. King.16:18; Matth. 27:5

That what a search of German pages told me. All not exactly my , but anyway. Hope it helps.

Tube

The place to look for things like this (where you want to find a Bible quote about a given subject) is in a reference book known as a "topical bible" -- I use a CD-ROM version of Nave's Topical Bible, myself.

Here are some quotes used by some theologists to justify why "suicide is bad". (obviously *not* under copyright, being thousands of years old and all):

* Amos 9:2 (This is a little difficult to interpret, and is also a little scary) -- "Though they dig into Sheol, thence shall my hand take them; and though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down."

* Matthew 4:5-7 (in these lines, the devil tries to tempt Jesus into attempting suicide by jumping off a cliff, telling him that he knows God will save him. Jesus responds that one shouldn't test God -- there are those that say that suicide is just that -- testing God, testing life, testing love.) "Though shall not make trial of the Lord thy God."

There are also several stories in the Bible of "bad" people killing themselves (such as Judas). And there's a general, overarching theme throughout the Bible that "life is sacred" -- it is this premise that is used by those opposing suicide, euthanasia, abortion, and the death penalty.

Hope this helps a little.


Mikey

Thanks all. It's funny that I should believe there was a specfic passage and yet there isn't. Obviously this is, as most of you point out, due to the massive amount of indiviual interpretation of the Bible, which has been handed down over the years. Says it all really.

Simon

Try [URL Removed by Moderator]... it claims to explain what the bible says about suicide...

*hopes the external link will be tolerated... *

Doesn't look like it will...

I'm no Bible expert, but you're right: the way the Bible is interpreted by different denominations is extremely varied. The Bible does (I'm sorry, it does) contradict itself a lot, and on many issues. It's an interesting topic, certainly.

Not very helpful, I know. But I thought I'd post anyway.

A justification of suicide (or at least self mutilation, can be found in the words:
"If thine eye offend thee pluck it out"
which I'm sure someone will inform me is from Shakespeare or somesuch and not the holy book at all, at all.

peace
~jwf~

No, it is biblical. Words of Jesus, no less. More modern translations say something like, "If your eye causes you to sin..." which is presumably what that actually means. Oh, I think I should mention that I don't think anyone holds that you actually should pluck out your eye, but you probably knew that already.

Now you tell me!

You'll never really find any hard position on suicide in the Bible. It gave the early Christians fits, too. Christianity came to prominence in some pretty bleak times (fall of Rome, rise of feudalism), and people were looking for escape. With the promise of eternal bliss, some people decided it wasn't worth it to wait. That's why the history books are littered with martyrs for the first few centuries of Christianity. It wasn't until the papacy was established as a secular and theological power that it was able to declare suicide a cardinal sin (which means it can only be enjoyed by cardinals and higher?).

During the height of Roman persecution, Christians were turning themselves in left and right. I think it was Emperor Justinian who, as one of the most forgiving emperors, gave accused Christians tremendous opportunity to clear themselves. They were to be asked thrice: "Are you a Christian?" A negative answer at any time, followed by a lighting of a candle or similar little ceremony before a statue of the emperor, and the accused was free to go. In the Roman culture, where religious tolerance was far greater than we have achieved since in any part of the Western world, to make a prayer or offering before someone else's god was no big deal. The whole thing would have unfolded like this:

"Are you a Christian?"
"Yes."
"Are you *sure* you're a Christian?"
"Ummm... yes?"
"I'm going to ask you one last time. If you answer in the affirmative, I must inform you that your fate is death by crucifixion. Think carefully before you answer. Are you, in fact, a Christian?"

And despite such leniency, they said yes again. They literally killed themselves, dying with the same fanatical fervor that radical Islamic suicide bombers employ today. After all, "every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." Matt 19:29

Justinian may or may not have been forgiving, but he was still trying to get them to renounce their faith. Think about it, would you, as an atheist, be happy to be forced to acknowledge a god in some way? Okay, I don't know whether you'd be willing to die first, but surely you shouldn't be made to make that choice.

I, as an atheist, stood up in a Lutheran church and repeated the "recession of faith" (or something like that ) as part of a baptism for my best friends' second-born son. They wanted me to be the godfather even though they know my stand on religion, and I love them too much to have turned them down.

Oh. Actually lots of people do that. Oh well, maybe I didn't think that through.

While I have no clear proof or evidence I have to speculate that Justinian was just putting on a good show.
Remember, the Coliseum was a Theater of Death. Just killing them was getting to be a bit of a bore. Asking them three times if they wanted to renounce Christ simply added to the drama, the expectation. Much like that 'Who wants to be a millionaire' TV crapola - "Final answer...?"

jwf

I object most strongly to the notion that early Christian martyrs are along the same vein as suicidal terrorists. They each may have sacrificed their lives for what they believe, but early Christians decidedly did not take thousands of non-believers with them when they died.

Nice little debate we've started here isn't it?

I appreciate all the feedback guys and I am enjoying seeing ideas flying around. I agree that we can't link Bombing with Christians in the arena but as soon as you make one concession along comes the Crusades. My point about religion.

Anyway, in the interests of creative development does anyone have ANY good quotes on suicide? In particular I am looking for some info on famous suicides, in particular, methods of. For example: Elvis - Hamburgers. Toilet. You get the idea.

And let's keep the religion debate going, it's getting interesting. Incidentally, Colonel, what is the "Recession of Faith" ceremony, I would find it intriguing to find out and it may be neccessary for me as a fellow atheist (or should that be agnostic?) to take part in one eventually. (Mind you nothing can be as difficult as being at an Italian Catholic funeral and stuck in the front row. It all got a bit Exorcist like with the holy water on coffin section of the ceremony and I was beginning to wonder if being sprinkled would cause me to melt in a cloud of evil smelling smoke.)

Simon

Hummmm... prior discussions about religion on H2G2 did at times turn nasty ... we shall see how this one does. ("Never fight against religion or something else which seems to be dependent on God, for it possesses too much power over the mind of fools" -- Francesco Guicciardini (1483-1540)).

Quotes:
Nicolas-Sébastien Roch Chamfort (1741-1794):
Life is an illness of which sleep frees us once every sixteen hours. It's just a palliative, death is the cure.

Samuel Butler (1835-1902):
To live is like to love - all reason is against it, and all
healthy instinct for it.

Charles Caleb Colton "The Lacon" (1829):
Suicide sometimes proceeds from cowardice, but not always; for cowardice sometimes prevents it; since as many live because they are afraid to die, as die because they are afraid to live.

Immanuel Kant:
Suicide is not abominable because God prohibits it; God prohibits it because it is abominable.

H. L. Mencken:
No matter how much a woman loved a man, it would still give her a glow to see him commit suicide for her.

Arthur Miller “After the Fall”:
A suicide kills two people . . . that’s what it’s for.

Arthur Schopenhauer:
They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice; . . . that suicide is wrong; when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in the world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person.


Tube

Thankyou Tube. Take your point on the religion thing. I can see how it might all go wrong and turn into a verbal blood bath. Perhaps I should call a halt and proceed in this more interesting direction?

Particularly liked the quote from H. L. Mencken. I am sure I have met this woman. Except she wanted to help me along in my suicide attempt. With an ashtray. And a fist.

'nuff said.