h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

("Never fight against religion or something else which seems to be dependent on God, for it possesses too much power over the mind of fools" -- Francesco Guicciardini (1483-1540)).

Hmmm.. I knew that. So why am I posting?
Well maybe so I can find that quote again and use it next time I want to get out of a religious discussion that's turned tedious.In a nice way.


(Samuel Butler (1835-1902):
"To live is like to love - all reason is against it, and all
healthy instinct for it".)

Please note the operative word there is 'healthy'. If you've got your health, you've got everything. Without it you have nothing.

(Arthur Schopenhauer:
"They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice; . . . that suicide is wrong; when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in the world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person".)

Ah yes Mister Schopenhauer but what if that life is not worth holding title to when a person's health fails. Be that the health of the head, the heart, the body or the spirit.

(John W Fulton:
"We can never be sure all the life has left the leaf before the stem lets go of the branch and falls. On a windy day all leaves tremble".)

Hey who invited hi.. oh wait that's me!

peace
jwf

And on a lighter note...

Razors pain you
Rivers are damp
Acids stain you
And drugs cause cramp
Guns aren't lawful
Nooses give
Gas smells awful
You might as well live

Dorothy Parker

Let's see if I can recall the recession of faith. It's been several months, and my memory of it isn't very sharp, but it went something like this:

"I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I believe that the three are one. I believe that God the Son came to this earth and died for our sins. I believe that aliens sucked him up into their spaceship and took him to meet Elvis. I believe that eating greasy cheeseburgers while sitting on the toilet is the best way to do homage to Elvis, and if I do this, the aliens will take me to meet him in their flying blue suede shoe.

I believe that it is too hot in this church to be standing here while you bathe that child, and the whole thing is just a bit too paedophilic for my tastes. I believe that I am dressed far too well, and unless I'm getting paid or getting laid, there isn't any point to it. I believe that there isn't one hot chick in this entire place, and I doubt I'd find her interesting even if there was."

Some of that was said, and some of it just went flying across my mind at that same time. I'm having difficulty seperating the two.

LOL! Save yourself the trouble. It stands as written. Wonderfully iconoclastic. Drew me well into it the first three sentences before the old pie in the face. Top that with hamburgers in the toilet and ugly church chicks and you have a winner. Bravo.
peace
jwf

You have to say all that just to be a godfather? In the ones I've been to you just have to make a few promises about bringing the kid up. Oh, you also have to renounce the pleasures of the flesh, which had Fat Andy slightly worried in an episode of Dalziel and Pascoe (police detective series). It was pointed out to him that it was said in Church, so didn't count. Like in court.

Yeah, there were a couple of promises, too, but I basically just had to say yes to some things I really didn't listen to.

Curious thing about the duties of a godfather. Nowhere do they mention religion specifically. All you have to do is:
- Take care of the kid if something happens to mommy and daddy.
- Be a spiritual guide.

It doesn't say *which* spirituality I have to guide him too, now, does it? I think that's supposed to be covered by the Elvis thing, but they weren't smart enough to make me agree to make him specifically Catholic (Lutherans call themselves Catholic, and there aren't enough differences for it to matter either way). That'll teach them.

I think in Scotland at least, being the "Spiritual Guide" means that you will be the first adult to buy the kid a drink. When this occurs is up to you.

Good one, Colonel.

Erm, can someone tell me why Tube's (it was Tube's posting wasn't it?) post has been moderated?

As with most religious law there isn't really much basis for the evil of suicide in the Bible, but in Christian dogma it is interesting to note that Judas went to hell, not for betraying Christ but for hanging himself.

I always like to note that this religious taboo was the basis for the law in England which made suicide not only illegal, but punishable by death, so if you failed in your attempt the government would finish off the job for you.

Similarly the only part of the UK where homosexuality is still illegal is the Isle of Man, where they punish you for this crime by locking you up with lots of other offenders (which must be something like a Club 18-30 do!)

Sorry to be a killjoy people but I yikesed Tube's posting, and I've got reservations about some others, on the grounds of potential harm.

If any of you have known what it's like to be depressed to the point of suicide, then you would appreciate a person's perceptions and desires are in a very vulnerable and suggestible state, where external factors can prove very instrumental in what they decide to do. Some of the material on this thread could be very bad news for them.

By all means discuss the ethical/religious issues of suicide, but please be careful how you do so, as there may be someone out there contemplating it who may take note of some of the above.

If you feel this applies to you, please contact The Samaritans, a friend, family member or someone you can trust to understand, and seek medical help - but don't lose hope. There are plenty of facilities out there to get you through it, and some on this site have, myself included.

Peace
Kid

Ah, that's where it went... I'd thought that it may have been moderated on grounds of copyright.

That posting of mine is still pending removal, so I wish to point out that it contained, for the part relating to suicide, quotes only. There were quotes which may be taken as advocating suicide as a solution and there were quotes which are against suicide. Thus I was presenting a number of different points of view and not favouring one. I feel that I was discussing the different ethical approaches to suicide by that posting. Also, the majority of the quotes can be found when searching the web for "death suicide quote". I can't quite see how that posting could therefore be harmful.

However, I respect your choice to Yikes! the posting, Kid. Should the Italics feel that it contains
"Unlawful, harassing, defamatory, abusive, threatening, harmful, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, racially offensive, or otherwise objectionable material" I shall not dispute their descision.

Tube

As someone who has lived with chronic depression for 15 years i would like to point out that the thought of suicide is one of the things which has helped me survive.

I think is was Nietchze who said that contemplating suicide had had been the only thing that helped him through many a long night, and Stevie Smith once said that death was your only true freind as he was the only one who HAD to come when yo called him.

I can't agree with these sentiments enough, life is hard and painful and cruel, for all it's beauty's and joys they are outweighed by the doom, and sometimes in the slough of despond, the only thing that makes it tolerable is knowing that you're not stuck there, your there by choice, and CAN opt out if you really want, and having that option knowing its there, and even toying with it a little, can help you survive and give you the strength to hang on a little longer and see if things get better.

A friend of mine contructs her whole life around strategies for suicide, long and elaborate ones running concurrently, the pre-requisites for which require her to stay alive in order to organise them properly, for example she has several different stashes of pills which she hoards, and though together they could easily finish her off they are seperate methods to her, contingency plans for if one method fails. It's dangerous, but shes in a dangerous position, and it's her way of getting by. Her pills are a crutch more than anything, she's more likely to kill herself with other methods. But the elaborse system she has for saving these various pills is her only way of projecting an image of herself into the future. Otherwise she hold down a job and only three or four people know of her awful condition.

Fair enough. I just figured it can't be too helpful to see confusing pro/anti suicide discussion for someone in a crisis. While there's nothing implicitly harmful about this discussion I just think it'd be responsible for conversations like this to have a link or references to support groups and helplines.

Go to any depression or other mental health site and you'll always find ways to find help, with a clear statement saying that it cannot be in any way a replacement for medical support. It's a bit much to ask someone with depression to have a clear perspective of what's being said, or to have a full understanding of its intended meaning. After all, you only see or hear what you want to, and if you're depressed and you hear "I Will Survive" on the radio, you probably stand a much better chance of getting through it than if you heard "Living Is Without You" by Nielsen for example.

Apologies Tube

Not to worry, Kid.
I just wanted to make sure that if that posting never made it back I wouldn't stand here as someone whose postings drive people to suicide.

As for the music: the better I feel the "darker" the music gets and vice versa. (The flatmate somethimes comment "Oh, that death music stuff, Tube must be feeling great!". When I listen to things like "The best love songs of the 80s and 90s" I'm really down)
And the black/Goth music helped me through some not-so-good-years.

Tube
thinking of Willem

autist... i've not heard this bit about judas going to hell becuase he hanged himself, where did that come from? is that something that the church of England teaches? cant say as ive ever even heard of that.

I made an oblique reference to the connection between Christain dogma and suicide, so I will elaborate.

Along with the martyrdoms I mentioned before, many Christians were just plain killing themselves, especially after the fall of the Roman Empire. Poverty was rampant, Germanic tribes mauraded Europe, and surrender to a life of slavery as a feudal serf was the only protection for the common people. In the midst of this, Christian preachers taught about a wonderful life after death, and all they had to do to get it was to get baptized. So they did it. Then they killed themselves. In order to stop it, the papacy declared suicide to be a mortal sin, punishable by eternal torment. And so, the serfs went back to work so the church and state could steal the fruits of that labor, for the next 1500 years or so.

If Judas killed himself, and suicide is a deadly sin, then he obviously would go to Hell for it, right? And I'm not too sure on this one, but didn't Jesus forgive Judas for the betrayal? Therefore, the church couldn't say he went to Hell for the betrayal, but could say he was in Hell for a different reason altogether.

There's only one good reason to go to Hell ..the company.
*apologies to Mark Twain*

peace
jwf

oh, Catholicism, I see. Thanks for the clarification Colonel.

Catholicism is, after all, just about the only source we have of the religion for its first 1500 years. Anytime you want to get to the source of a particular development, they're a good place to start.

I'm fairly certain that the idea of suicide as a mortal sin is not limited to Catholicism. I'm pretty sure that its widely acclaimed by Protestant religions. You can't run a good religion if all of your believers keep offing themselves.

I've always been of the oppinion that the study of Christianity should start with the Bible, but I do understand the prominence of Rome, historically speaking....

by mortal sin, do mean a sin that automatically dooms one to hell?